Fares reforms

[Waddon]

Many people (me included) find the UK rail fares structure sometimes confusing and over-complicated. I'm just curious, if you had the power to create a new fares structure for the UK rail network (and a suitable budget to implement it), what would you do?

 

[yorkie]

Ah yes, this topic again Expect to see suggestions along the lines of distance based pricing - but then rural lines such as Middlesbrough-Whitby would probably close, the York to Whitby price would increase exponentially and no-one would ever undertake such a journey by rail, and popular routes would become more wedged as they would become cheaper per mile. If routes were priced by the shortest route, the number of excesses issued would be huge and guards would have to calculate the mileage for many tickets in order to work out if an excess should be issued. Peterborough-Leicester would cost more than Peterborough-Nottingham (currently valid via Leicester). No-one would travel Tain to Golspie by rail!

No, distance-based pricing does not work.

In general what we have now is the way to go but with some radical changes:

* BOJ (break of journey) permitted on all walk-on fares.
* SVR (Off peak, formerly Saver) Conditions set to what they were pre-privatisation, with some minor adjustments permitted in extreme cases where justified. This would simplify conditions massively.
* Simplify railcard conditions (MIN fare £10 on all ticket types with ALL railcards before 10am, no minimum after 10am, no limit on Senior in NSE area, no weekday minimum for Network card.)
* Introduce a National railcard (conditions as above), even if the price is £50. This will encourage buy before boarding and encourage rail use generally while not actually lowering prices.
Fares to be set centrally
* NRG (national routeing guide) and NCoC (national conditions of carriage) to be taken off ATOC, and no the DfT cannot be trusted, it would be given to an independent organisation not-for-profit. NRG to be updated with people whose IQ is at least average for the general population. Unfair terms in NCoC to be removed/re-worded.
* NFM CDs to be available free online (the £10 charge for postage is effectively an admin fee)
* CDRs to be introduced for all journeys up to the extreme limit of where it is possible to return in a day, at a roughly equivalent rate comparable with stringing together many CDRs. It does not make sense that BHM-CNM/CNM-BRI/BRI-TAU/TAU-EXD/EXD-PLY is cheaper than BHM-PLY. BHM-PLY can be done in a day so the ticket should exist.
* TOC specific fares to be re-named route specific where possible, and where not possible, easements to exist to allow customers to excess TOC specific tickets (perhaps with a small admin charge if this cannot be avoided) - charging a new ticket is unacceptable
* Passenger Focus to go undercover (e.g. as passengers from unstaffed stations in / changing into PF areas is a particular area of concern) on a regular basis, to check that revenue staff are applying NCoC correctly.
* Time restrictions on off peak tickets to be set centrally and made sensible and consistent where possible. TOCs bid based on what they are told the fares are, not bidding on the basis of proposed draconian restrictions
* No restrictions at all on Off Peak/Off Peak day tickets that avoid London.
* Off Peak (day/non-day/travelcard) tickets out of London to be unrestricted on stopping trains that call within the travelcard area, to be consistent with destinations within London (it is insane that you can use such a ticket to Hadley Wood but not Potters bar), trains would clearly be labelled as Local or Fast in all timetables and on all departure boards, announcements etc. This happens with FGW. Splitting on FCC avoids this problem but why should customers have to split?
* Passenger Focus to be made more independent and have more clout
* Penalty fare appeals to be done independently. NOT by a train operating company. NO lies about independence to be allowed.
* Fines issued to TOCs who charge passengers incorrectly.
* NRES to employ staff who have geographical knowledge of the UK
* Route specific fares to be extended to flows that currently can be made a lot cheaper by splitting (e.g. York - Sunderland has no Not Darlo flow - why? this means we have to split at Hartlepool. This is insane)

Plus more...

 

[gordonthemoron]

National Railcard would be good, like the Bahncard I have in germany.

IIRC BR had plans to introduce a partner railcard in the 80's whereby two people travelling together could get a third off. Unfortunately never implemented.

 

[stut]

Affordable walk-up fares. I don't really care about the rest.

 

[LondonLarry]

No, distance-based pricing does not work.

Even in mainland Europe where a lot of pricing is still distance based?

Here are a few of my suggestions:

Mileage based pricing would work if you had a 'standard mileage charge' which would be treated as the CDS/Off Peak Day Single rate. You would then:
- Charge a percentage premium for travel in the peak
- Give a percentage discount for travelling in a Super Off Peak period
- A further percentage premium would be added for longer distance InterCity services (e.g. London - Coventry) but not if you boarded an Intercity service to do a shorter distance journey e.g. Coventry - Birmingham NS.
- A further, higher premium, would be added for High Speed services.

Trains would be clearly classed by price and given an associated colour in timetables and on station departure screens so people know which rates would apply to their outward and return journeys. E.g. Peak trains are Red, Off Peak are Green and Super Off Peak are Blue.

National Railcards would be available to everyone, but priced higher than they are at present. A 33% discount would still be offered on Off Peak and Super Off Peak tickets only.
- The high pricing would prevent people from using it to save money on one journey and never using it again.
- A lower priced version would be available to those in full time education or those over 60.
- Concessionary bus pass holders would also get a discount for rail journeys within the country the pass is valid for. e.g. An English pass would be valid in England only. They would be given a discount of 10% on Off Peak and Super Off Peak tickets.

Those boarding a train with an invalid ticket (e.g. Off Peak travelling on a Peak) would be charged the difference in fares, plus a supplement. The same would apply to Advance ticket holders who travel on an earlier train than the one booked. Those travelling on a train later than the one booked would pay the difference in fares plus the supplement (unless they did the excess before their original booked train, in which case they'd just pay the difference).

Throw the routeing guide out the window and start again! Using mileage based pricing would make a guide simpler to program and easier to understand.

 

[gordonthemoron]

one problem with distance based pricing, is that it is route specific and so would not permit 'any reasonable route'

 

[jon0844]

London works with its zonal system, although some countries do a time based charging system (so you can swap from one mode of transport to another, or use multiple buses, for a fixed price). This could work for London, or other cities, but those areas would need to be clearly defined.

The other thing I've wondered about is the Intercity routes, and the other routes that are almost like Intercity routes but not (e.g. FCC to Peterborough and Cambridge). Perhaps you could have different ticketing/pricing for normal train services - which are slower in most cases - and Intercity.

This wouldn't have to be that confusing if it was clearly stated that your ticket only covered <name of standard trains> and not Intercity and vice versa. So, you could still have special offers for Intercity routes, but it would usually be cheaper to take a slower service to, say, Birmingham. This then gets around, partly, the problem of distance based charging which could make some routes significantly more expensive.

It might also help balance loads, but it would also need a massive overhaul of pathing and - to be honest - closer service planning between operators. In fact, this is when the privatisation of each route/franchise becomes a bit of an issue as no operator is likely to work with another!

Another problem would be that you arrive in Birmingham, Manchester, Peterborough etc and use your cheap slow-stopper ticket having actually used an Intercity train - so you'd need more checks to be made on the trains, and stiffer penalties for using the wrong service. This is why Intercity routes would be clearly defined as separate to the normal railway - the fast trains vs the semi-fast/slow trains. It would make ticketing easier, along with reducing the need for loads of clauses and conditions.

I've hardly done loads of research into this, it's just an idea, but it could help simplify things and allow fairer fares, putting a premium on the services that get you somewhere quicker. That's not to say you wouldn't still get special offers on using Virgin over a slower service.

At the end of the day, I can't see any real changes until we move towards a national smartcard system for travel. Then, you can start to offer lots of innovative pricing, especially as you'll now be able to indentify regular travellers and introduce automatic discounting and so on.

 

[Oswyntail]

I would suggest that fares between any two stations could be determined centrally, and the franchisees told that is what they will charge. A massive, but not impossible, task. Not necessarily distance based, so local requirements could be taken into consideration
Then you have essentially eight ticket types Peak/Offpeak (times defined by departure and arrival station), one day travel/period travel and Walk-on/Advance (defined as purchased at least the day before). Railcards used as promotional aids can be used to vary these prices.
Fare allocation determined by network-theory. Eg Ilkley - Leeds 100% Northern. Leeds-Manchester proportionately according to percentage of trains over the sections of the routes available provided by each franchise. Again, a massive modelling task, but simple and resilient once done.
Allow break of journey any number of times. On day of travel tickets, only on day of travel; on period tickets devise a time limit (sorry, hazy thinking).
And, most radically, scrap the routing guide. Most journeys are straightforward and do not involve this in any way; most passengers simply want to get to their destination. But if I want to travel from Ilkley to Telford and back (I do , frequently) I should be able to choose the routes that are most convenient for me, even if that means out via Shrewsbury and back via Derby. And so what if that means I travel from Leeds to Manchester via Bristol. The routing guide is designed purely to hinder those who want to do anything out of the ordinary, and i would suggest that is much less than 1% of the travelling public.

 

[furryfeet]

I would add the following for now to yorkie comments:-

a) scrap the routing guide altogether and replace with "any reasonable route" which is what I believe the wording was in the days of BR
b) No 1st class fare shall be more than 50% above its 2nd class equivalent
c) Railcards to offer at least 50% discount, as they used to do in the days of BR
d) Family railcard to allow discounts on 1st class travel
e) where a 2nd class Saver exists, then introduce a 1st class Saver equivalent
f) force the TOC's to reintroduce fares that have been scrapped altogether since privatisation ( thinking of when Central trains got rid of all their Cheap Day Returns overnight, thus forcing people to buy Savers and hence a price rise of up 170% !) Such fares could be what they were when they were scrapped plus the RPI since then. It would be written into the TOC's contracts that they not abolish fares in the future.

 

[oldsystem]

Thought italys system was fairly easy when i was there.

Distance based, but 3 different price bands. Highest price (per km or whatever) for fast limited stops, lowest priced was very slow with frequent stops (and very cheap, no seat reservations), and one somewhere in the middle.

20% discount for booking in advance on the fast and medium trains.

 

[Dewedin]

I believe that if the current system was to change it certainly wouldn't be done for the benefit of passengers.

So I would prefer the lesser of two evils and leave things as they are.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Discounts on ALL tickets when using a 16-25 railcard (except min fares etc)