"Fare splitting"

[glynn80]

Under condition (c), if the kent rover is not considered a leisure pass, it is a valid combination, by the wording, as ONE must be a season or leisure pass and THE OTHER(S) is/are not (something that I had previously misread (lazy reading on my part)).

If it is considered a leisure pass the train would have to stop somewhere to change over tickets.

Well as I said also yes the Kent Rover is not a Leisure Pass, but it does not say anywhere in the NRCOC that you are only allowed to have one Season in the cominbation, it just states that you can use one or more tickets of which one is a Season.

So even if the Kent Rover was a Leisure Pass it "would not" need to stop to transfer tickets.

 

[yorkie]

I agree with glynn80, although I think the wording of the rule is daft, but this is the only legal interpretation IMO (IANAL). Whether it is intended to be that way, we may never know...!

I do think a minority of guards/RPIs may not like people doing this and may hassle passengers so I do advise bringing a copy of the rules with you if you are stringing together a load of CDRs.

The rule allows someone to, for example, combine a Poppleton-York season, a York-Grantham CDR, and a Grantham-London ODT/CDR and use Grand Central York-London non-stop. I wonder if GC's guards will realise this is valid or not? (Splitting at Grantham saves around 30% of the fare for day trips)

 

[barrykas]

The rule allows someone to, for example, combine a Poppleton-York season, a York-Grantham CDR, and a Grantham-London ODT/CDR and use Grand Central York-London non-stop. I wonder if GC's guards will realise this is valid or not? (Splitting at Grantham saves around 30% of the fare for day trips)

(panto mode on) Oh no it doesn't! (panto mode off)

Whilst Condition 19 would allow you to travel from Poppleton to GRANTHAM on a train that didn't stop at York with such a combination, to travel on to London the train MUST stop at Grantham, as that's where you change from the York - Grantham ticket to the Grantham - London ticket.

If, however, it was a York - Grantham season ticket, with the other two as "normal" tickets, then that wouldn't apply, and you could travel through on a non-stop train.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[yorkie]

Barry - have you read the earlier posts on this topic?

We seem to have established that only one ticket needs to be a season and you can have any number of non-seasons. I was sceptical at first, but it does appear quite clear now, with the new slightly re-worded conditions as quoted above...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

This is why I said I had mis-read it before, look:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover
the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at the station where you change from one ticket to
another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season
Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or
local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

 

[barrykas]

What Condition 19 says, and what ATOC intend it to mean are not necessarily the same thing. Certainly, I'm fairly certain that our Revenue Protection staff would use the same interpretation as I have in such a case.

UPDATE: Come to think of it, the staff on the NXEC/GC train from York wouldn't even want to see the Poppleton - York ticket as it's irrelevant for that particular leg of the journey (at least as far as they're concerned) as they don't serve Poppleton!

Unfortunately, the examples in Retail Manual Part 1 and the Ticket Examiners Handbook only cover combining a Season Ticket with one other ticket.

I have, however, e-mailed ATOC on this matter and will report back when I get a response.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[Chris B]

What Condition 19 says, and what ATOC intend it to mean are not necessarily the same thing.

That, frankly, is your opinion, and yours only. What is *published*, in the public domain, is what the legaility is. And that clearly says ONE season ticket combined with *ticket(s)* - that's one or *more* tickets - are valid for a non-stop journey from the start to finish destinations on said tickets.

Thanks for alerting ATOC - we know who to blame now if the T&Cs change, don't we?

What the T&Cs don't cover is just what ticket validity the whole journey takes - the same validity stated for an end-to-end ticket, or different validites for each section (I can't see how the latter can work...)

This could affect when you could make the whole journey if using a CDR as any part of it. But as there's nothing stated in the published T&Cs, I guess you could choose.....if you can get the latter to work on a non-stop journey.

The above point needs further debate as I doubt there is a Poppleton - London CDR. Therefore what ticket validity covers the whole trip is really rather open & undecided. I guess it needs testing in court.

Certainly, I'm fairly certain that our Revenue Protection staff would use the same interpretation as I have in such a case.

Southeastern RPIs don't agree with your opinion....I've now spoken to over a dozen who read those T&Cs as I (and others here) do.

UPDATE: Come to think of it, the staff on the NXEC/GC train from York wouldn't even want to see the Poppleton - York ticket as it's irrelevant for that particular leg of the journey (at least as far as they're concerned) as they don't serve Poppleton!

But it is required as it is the ticket that validates the rest of the non-stop trip. Doesn't matter which TOC is was made on....

 

[barrykas]

And the answer from ATOC is:

In the example journey that you quote (i.e Poppleton to London) the train from York to London does not need to call at
Grantham provided all three tickets are shown when requested by a ticket
inspector.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[glynn80]

I was going to post last night and reply to barrykas but decided to wait until this evening but it seems the matter has been cleared up.

I think ATOC do intend for the rule to be there otherwise wording would not of been changed in the NRCOC to reflect this as previously the wording was not clear and could of been interpreted either way.

Also just out of interest is TfL a Passenger Transport Executive if so does this make Travelcard season tickets invalid under this rule?

 

[barrykas]

Also just out of interest is TfL a Passenger Transport Executive if so does this make Travelcard season tickets invalid under this rule?

TfL has some things in common with PTEs, but it isn't regarded as being one.

The examples in Retail Manual Part 1 involving Travelcard Seasons are as follows:

• Example 1: A customer holding a Northampton to Berkhamsted Season Ticket and a Berkhamsted to London R1256 (=AII Zones) Travelcard Season Ticket, may only travel between Northampton and 'London R1256' on trains which stop at Berkhamsted.
• Example 2: A customer with a three months Travelcard Season Ticket between Sittingbourne and 'London R56' ('Out Boundary to Zones 5 + 6) wishes to travel for one week only to Beckenham Junction, in Zone 4. To do so, they must purchase a 7-Day Travelcard Season Ticket for Zone 4 and use both tickets for the through journey. It will not be necessary to change trains if a through service is available.
• Example 3: A customer with a three months Travelcard Season Ticket between Brighton and 'London R56' wants to travel for one day only to Romford, in Zone 6, on the opposite side of London. To do so, he must purchase appropriate tickets to enable him to cross Zones 4, 3, 2 and 1 into London and then zones 1-4 between London and Romford. Accordingly, a Peak or Off-Peak Day Travelcard for Zones R1234 to be used in conjunction with the Travelcard Season Ticket would need to be purchased before travel commenced.

It has, however, been reported on uk.railway that FCC will quite happily accept the combination of a Potters Bar - Hadley Wood Season and Zone 1 to 6 Period Travelcard on trains not stopping at Hadley Wood. (To comply with the NCoC it would need to be Potters Bar - Zone 6 and a Zones 1 to 5 Travelcard, for example).

Cheers,

Barry

 

[glynn80]

Ok I'm not sure those examples make it clear, obviously not your fault but for example if I had a York to Doncaster CDR, a Doncaster to Peterborough CDR, a Peterborough to Finsbury Park CDR and a Z1 and Z2 Monthly Travelcard Season would I be able to get a non-stop service from York?

P.S. I'm not sure there is a Peterborough to Finsbury Park AP CDR but it's just examples!

 

[barrykas]

Ok I'm not sure those examples make it clear, obviously not your fault but for example if I had a York to Doncaster CDR, a Doncaster to Peterborough CDR, a Peterborough to Finsbury Park CDR and a Z1 and Z2 Monthly Travelcard Season would I be able to get a non-stop service from York?

I'd say yes, as a Period Travelcard counts as both a Season Ticket and a Zonal Ticket for NCoC purposes.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

NCoC define as follows:

(n) “Season Ticket” means a ticket (including an Electronic Ticket) which allows
you to travel for a period of 7 consecutive days or longer and will have one
or more of the following characteristics:
(i) it shows the word “Season”;
(ii) it shows the word “Travelcard”;
(iii) it is endorsed with a photocard number;

 

[PTF62]

The examples in Retail Manual Part 1 involving Travelcard Seasons are as follows:

• Example 2: A customer with a three months Travelcard Season Ticket between Sittingbourne and 'London R56' ('Out Boundary to Zones 5 + 6) wishes to travel for one week only to Beckenham Junction, in Zone 4. To do so, they must purchase a 7-Day Travelcard Season Ticket for Zone 4 and use both tickets for the through journey. It will not be necessary to change trains if a through service is available.

That is very interesting. At the moment I have a rail season ticket with the R1256 add-on for travel within London. However when traveling within London I would prefer to use an Oyster card, as it is easier than a paper ticket.

So this means that I could use a 'somewhere outside London' to London R56 annual season ticket together with a Zone 1-4 TfL annual travelcard (held on an Oyster card), on a non-stop train from 'somewhere outside London' to its London terminal destination.

I assume that all the ticket staff would be aware of this, but is there anywhere you can get a copy of the page with this example from the Retail Manual?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Oyster counts as ticket in the same way as its paper counterpart. Thus an Annual ticket on an Oyster card would count as an Annual Season ticket.

You can't access the Retail Manual directly, It is no longer printed in paper form and is hidden behind passwords on the net, instead download the pdf copy of the National Conditions of Carriage from the National Rail website. Condition 19 relates to the use of multiple tickets, as quoted in this thread somewhere.

Ticket office staff should be aware of these rules, anyone working in a ticket office, or on-train staff, who deny these rules should be challenged to prove otherwise, they will not find any different if they look.

 

[PTF62]

Oyster counts as ticket in the same way as its paper counterpart. Thus an Annual ticket on an Oyster card would count as an Annual Season ticket.

Sorry if I am being thick, but does that means that you can use a 'somewhere outside London' to London R56 annual season ticket together with a Zone 1-4 TfL annual travelcard, on a non-stop train from 'somewhere outside London' to its London terminal destination?

I looked at the NCOC about combining tickets, and it appeared that it would only meet the rules for combining tickets under the zonal cards condition (as obviously the train doesn't stop, and both are season tickets). I was a bit unsure about whether the 'somewhere outside London' to London R56 would be considered a zonal ticket.

That was why I was interested in the example of a three month Season Ticket between Sittingbourne and 'London R56' being combined with a 7-Day Travelcard Season Ticket for Zone 4, and it not be necessary to change trains if a through service is available, as it seemed to validate what I wanted to do (albeit with annual tickets, and holding the Travelcard on Oyster).

 

[ah-media]

Boy is this confusing .... :-?:-?:-?

So I want to travel from Three Bridges to Central London everyday.

I CAN do TBD-ECR on a ticket and then 1-4 Zones on a FCC, but CAN'T do TDB - Coulsdon South and then 1-6 Zones as my FCC doesn't stop there?

Hmmm...

For the record - paper tickets suck when you're a clumsy idiot who keeps bending them

 

[yorkie]

PTF62 - the purpose of Boundary Zone 6/5/whatever tickets is to allow non-stop trains. There is, of course, no such station as "Boundary Zone X".

Boy is this confusing .... :-?:-?:-?

So I want to travel from Three Bridges to Central London everyday.

I CAN do TBD-ECR on a ticket and then 1-4 Zones on a FCC, but CAN'T do TDB - Coulsdon South and then 1-6 Zones as my FCC doesn't stop there?

Hmmm...

For the record - paper tickets suck when you're a clumsy idiot who keeps bending them

If you are combining normal day tickets then that is correct.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....That was why I was interested in the example of a three month Season Ticket between Sittingbourne and 'London R56' being combined with a 7-Day Travelcard Season Ticket for Zone 4, and it not be necessary to change trains if a through service is available, as it seemed to validate what I wanted to do (albeit with annual tickets, and holding the Travelcard on Oyster).

Bear in mind that you need to have a ticket valid for all the zones you are travelling into and out of. So if you have the Sittingbourne to R56 season and you are travelling to a zone 4 station on a route that passes through zone 3 you would need a R34 ticket.

....I CAN do TBD-ECR on a ticket and then 1-4 Zones on a FCC,....

Last I checked, East Croydon was zone 5 so you would need a Zone R1245 (1-5) plus a TBD-ECR ticket.

 

[PTF62]

PTF62 - the purpose of Boundary Zone 6/5/whatever tickets is to allow non-stop trains. There is, of course, no such station as "Boundary Zone X".

Thanks, but I wasn't looking to add a "Boundary Zone X" ticket onto a season ticket, but combining a rail 'somewhere' to R456 season ticket and a separate zone 1-3 travelcard season ticket.

Bear in mind that you need to have a ticket valid for all the zones you are travelling into and out of. So if you have the Sittingbourne to R56 season and you are travelling to a zone 4 station on a route that passes through zone 3 you would need a R34 ticket.

Thanks. So if I was to do a 'somewhere' to R456 and a separate zone 1-3 travelcard this would obviously be valid on a 'somewhere' to London terminals direct train, as at any point in time one of the tickets would be valid in all the zones passed through.

 

[Chris B]

Thanks. So if I was to do a 'somewhere' to R456 and a separate zone 1-3 travelcard this would obviously be valid on a 'somewhere' to London terminals direct train, as at any point in time one of the tickets would be valid in all the zones passed through.

Not so sure about that.

I believe both tickets have to 'meet in the middle', i.e. both have the same zone validity. So you're suggestion wouldn't work, without them both being valid for the same zone.

 

[PTF62]

But where would be the difference with the example quoted in the retail manual?

Example 2: A customer with a three months Travelcard Season Ticket between Sittingbourne and 'London R56' ('Out Boundary to Zones 5 + 6) wishes to travel for one week only to Beckenham Junction, in Zone 4. To do so, they must purchase a 7-Day Travelcard Season Ticket for Zone 4 and use both tickets for the through journey. It will not be necessary to change trains if a through service is available.

 

[Chris B]

But where would be the difference with the example quoted in the retail manual?

Example 2: A customer with a three months Travelcard Season Ticket between Sittingbourne and 'London R56' ('Out Boundary to Zones 5 + 6) wishes to travel for one week only to Beckenham Junction, in Zone 4. To do so, they must purchase a 7-Day Travelcard Season Ticket for Zone 4 and use both tickets for the through journey. It will not be necessary to change trains if a through service is available.

Good point!

I'm obviously wrong - and will carry that example with me in future....

 

[virginjon]

Lots of fare splitting tips on this website:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=3902815

The same site is also in the process of setting up a free tool to find your split ticket options

Quote, "For the last two years we’ve been investigating an automated Train Ticket Calculator to find split ticket deals. It's more difficult than it appears; requiring huge computing power and research mathematicians to devise the algorithms and a problem of manipulating live data.

Yet recently (as at June 2008 ) we’ve started talking with a specialist partner to get such a tool … full details, when it’s up and running, will be in the free weekly MoneySaving e-mail."

 

[Chris B]

Lots of fare splitting tips on this website:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?p=3902815

Hmmm - that thread needs a clean-up. While valid when posted, a number of those are no longer the bargains they were.

 

[yorkie]

You'll never be able to fully automate it. Not without a few million quid, a live feed to the fares database and the timetable, and a huge amount of developers working on it full-time.

 

[paul1609]

Boy is this confusing .... :-?:-?:-?

So I want to travel from Three Bridges to Central London everyday.

I CAN do TBD-ECR on a ticket and then 1-4 Zones on a FCC, but CAN'T do TDB - Coulsdon South and then 1-6 Zones as my FCC doesn't stop there?

Hmmm...

For the record - paper tickets suck when you're a clumsy idiot who keeps bending them

Not Sure about Three bridges but when I used to commute to East Croydon from Littlehampton the season used to be "Littlehampton to Zones 456" quite handy as it included Tramlink at no extra cost.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Thanks. So if I was to do a 'somewhere' to R456 and a separate zone 1-3 travelcard this would obviously be valid on a 'somewhere' to London terminals direct train, as at any point in time one of the tickets would be valid in all the zones passed through.

Condition 19 of the Conditions of Carriage states that, provided the tickets cover the entire journey, multiple tickets can be used on a train provided:

(a) They are both zonal tickets;
(b) The train stops at the station where they change over;
(c) One is a season or leisure travel pass and the others are not.

In this case (a) would apply because all of your journey is covered and you have two zonal tickets. If only one is a season ticket, condition 19(c) would also apply.