Fare rise, same excuse!

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For all the talk of "no growth", Northern's fleet is larger now than when they took over the franchise. Not because of brand new trains, but the additional Pacers/ Sprinters/ 322s from other TOCs have at least increased the fleet size.

If you look to buy a new car and the salesman told you there were no new cars as such, but the showroom had increased its stock of elderly second-hand cars from other showrooms in their group which helped with your choice of car, would you be pleased with his comment?

"New trains" should be what the meaning of the words convey.

 

[Lampshade]

If you look to buy a new car and the salesman told you there were no new cars as such, but the showroom had increased its stock of elderly second-hand cars from other showrooms in their group which helped with your choice of car, would you be pleased with his comment?

"New trains" should be what the meaning of the words convey.

Depends what it was, if the salesman told me he'd had a couple of '67 Mustangs or a Ferrari Testarossa come in then it might be a different story.

But alas, what Northern have got amounts to a few Ladas, Skodas and Morris Marinas.

 

[tbtc]

If you look to buy a new car and the salesman told you there were no new cars as such, but the showroom had increased its stock of elderly second-hand cars from other showrooms in their group which helped with your choice of car, would you be pleased with his comment?

"New trains" should be what the meaning of the words convey.

But for all that you talk about the "no growth" terms and conditions of the franchise, you must appreciate that the franchise has grown (in terms of numbers of trains/ numbers of services run)?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But for all that you talk about the "no growth" terms and conditions of the franchise, you must appreciate that the franchise has grown (in terms of numbers of trains/ numbers of services run)?

Answer me one simple question....Does "no growth" equate to "no new trains". This particular thread began with the TOC mantra of increased fares to help towards new trains. Northern have the only franchise that I know that was issued to a TOC with a "no growth" proviso...this is why I constantly refer to that particular phrase.

That is why I made my suggestion that Northern should be not part of the increased fares stipulation based upon that very surmise.

 

[Greenback]

The truth is that fares rises are always sold as paying for improvements, although that is rarely the case. I remember BR saying the same thing back in the late 1980's and early 1990's when new trains were introduced, although not every line or route benefitted from them.

At the moment there is a shift towards higher contributions from farepayers as opposed to taxpayers. Fare rises also have to pay for increases in costs, such as salaries, fuel, electricity, access charges and so on.

 

[harz99]

Sorry if this has been asked before but does anyone know if the price of the all line rover will rise in January.

Don't know about the ALR but the 4 in 8 FNW will see a rise of slightly over 8% from £60 to £65 if that helps.

 

[CosherB]

There's just been a piece on Radio 4 about the letting of rail franchises next year. It seems the government is hell-bent on reducing what it spends on rail and so will be minded to go for the bidders who who offer the most money, even if that comes at the expense of less reliable and fewer trains without luxuries such as on-board catering!

So brace yourselves for a spartan WCML service from next December onwards, with no catering, fewer trains, and less reliability.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Don't know about the ALR but the 4 in 8 FNW will see a rise of slightly over 8% from £60 to £65 if that helps.

ALR 7 day Std Class goes from £430 to £450.
14 day goes from £650 to £680.

 

[tbtc]

Answer me one simple question....Does "no growth" equate to "no new trains". This particular thread began with the TOC mantra of increased fares to help towards new trains. Northern have the only franchise that I know that was issued to a TOC with a "no growth" proviso...this is why I constantly refer to that particular phrase.

That is why I made my suggestion that Northern should be not part of the increased fares stipulation based upon that very surmise.

I don't know the full details of the Northern franchise, I've not read the documents. It is commonly quoted that both Northern and ATW are "no growth" franchises, so Northern certainly aren't alone, but its obvious that the Northern *have* grown since 12 December 2004, there are more DMUs/ more EMUs/ more services run... by any definition there has been growth.

Bear in mind that some franchises haven't had any additional trains in the intervening period, at least Northern have had some growth. If you take the "no additional trains means no fare rise" argument literally then C2C tickets should still be at 1999 prices (and as for Merseyrail...).

 

[EM2]

The truth is that fares rises are always sold as paying for improvements, although that is rarely the case. I remember BR saying the same thing back in the late 1980's and early 1990's when new trains were introduced, although not every line or route benefitted from them.

But improvements doesn't always mean new trains.

 

[mailman]

3p of everyones pound spent on railways goes as profit to the railways. For Coca Cola it is 27p of every pound. Yet train companies are made to look greedy? Bit of a ridiculous world to be honest.

Coca Cola probably doesnt receive billions in government tax payer cash to do their job.

Mailman

 

[dk1]

Many bus fares have sneaked up by 10% with little or no media coverage.

Why do these protesters wheel themselves out year after year? I think i would have cottoned on that it ain't going to make one scrap of difference. Quite amusing that they gave up at St.Pancras when it started raining.

 

[northwichcat]

Answer me one simple question....Does "no growth" equate to "no new trains".

Are you meaning no brand new trains or no additional trains (new or cascaded) added to the franchise?

Ordering 102 new diesel trains and withdrawing Pacers, isn't the same as adding 25 additional trains to the franchise.

It is commonly quoted that both Northern and ATW are "no growth" franchises, so Northern certainly aren't alone, but its obvious that the Northern *have* grown since 12 December 2004, there are more DMUs/ more EMUs/ more services run... by any definition there has been growth.

I think the 'no growth' claim was effectively seen as an error early on in the franchise when Northern got 28 extra 158s and lost 12 x 142s and 8?x153s which equated to extra capacity in West Yorkshire and Merseyside.

The fact that the 12 x 142s are now in service again with Northern as additional stock (5 arriving back in 2008 and the other 7 last year) indicates that growth has continued.

In fact Northern are more than a little light of additional rolling stock compared to forecast growth predicted by the previous DfT with a new DMU order being cancelled and cascaded EMUs not yet ready to enter service in the North West.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Many bus fares have sneaked up by 10% with little or no media coverage.

There isn't a national day of fare rises with buses as there is with trains so bus fare rises only generally get the attention of the local media.

 

[jon0844]

There isn't a national day of fare rises with buses as there is with trains so bus fare rises only generally get the attention of the local media.

What's more, with the buses you'll find much more regular timetable changes. My local bus operator, Uno, is making a lot of changes from the 9th January - and from what I can see, there are no new services but plenty of services being withdrawn, curtailed or stopped earlier in the evening.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Are you meaning no brand new trains or no additional trains (new or cascaded) added to the franchise?

Ordering 102 new diesel trains and withdrawing Pacers, isn't the same as adding 25 additional trains to the franchise.

I am referring to "New Trains" in the terms that most areas outside "Northernland" would understand the meaning of those two particular words....brand new stock....that are fitted with all the most modern items for the benefit of the travelling public. Up here in "Northernland", we have all been brainwashed to accept the cast-offs from other areas as "new stock".

Incidentally, what "new stock" (in the correctly understood meaning of the word) besides the Class 185 units of First TPE have been made available to members of the travelling public on Northern Rail routes over the last six years?

What stock do you envisage will be provided for the vast majority of the services on the new "electrified" lines that will operational in the coming years? One can but hope that the newly redrawn franchise will have less hide-bound restrictions placed upon it.

 

[tbtc]

I am referring to "New Trains" in the terms that most areas outside "Northernland" would understand the meaning of those two particular words....brand new stock....that are fitted with all the most modern items for the benefit of the travelling public. Up here in "Northernland", we have all been brainwashed to accept the cast-offs from other areas as "new stock"

Ah, so the argument has moved on from "no growth" to "no brand new trains"?

Does that mean that you accept that the Northern franchise *has* grown (additional trains, additional services etc)?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Incidentally, what "new stock" (in the correctly understood meaning of the word) besides the Class 185 units of First TPE have been made available to members of the travelling public on Northern Rail routes over the last six years?

Given the thousand day "gap" in ordering new stock for any franchise there are obviously a number of TOCs who have not had new trains in the last few years.

It's not just Northern.

Are you meaning no brand new trains or no additional trains (new or cascaded) added to the franchise?

Ordering 102 new diesel trains and withdrawing Pacers, isn't the same as adding 25 additional trains to the franchise

This is a very good point; I think that most passengers would be more concerned with additional trains (meaning more chance of a seat etc), rather than a direct replacement of older trains with brand new ones (with no change to the fleet size).

I think the 'no growth' claim was effectively seen as an error early on in the franchise when Northern got 28 extra 158s and lost 12 x 142s and 8?x153s which equated to extra capacity in West Yorkshire and Merseyside.

The fact that the 12 x 142s are now in service again with Northern as additional stock (5 arriving back in 2008 and the other 7 last year) indicates that growth has continued.

In fact Northern are more than a little light of additional rolling stock compared to forecast growth predicted by the previous DfT with a new DMU order being cancelled and cascaded EMUs not yet ready to enter service in the North West.

I agree that there could be more trains (it shows how desperate things are when I am getting excited about doubled-up 142s on Sheffield services - how low are my expectations!), but things have definitely grown.

Many bus fares have sneaked up by 10% with little or no media coverage

Most things went up by 5% last year (since that was the rate of inflation), but few businesses increase all costs at the same time. Look at how Supermarkets advertise one price cut, whilst not advertising the various things which have increased that week - because it makes sense for rail tickets to all rise on the same date (to avoid discrepancies etc) it's a nice big headline for people to be outraged at.

Incidently most of the newspapers ranting about the increasing cost of train tickets haven't been shy in raising their prices...

 

[WestCoast]

Given the thousand day "gap" in ordering new stock for any franchise there are obviously a number of TOCs who have not had new trains in the last few years.

It's not just Northern.

No, but I don't think there is another TOC operating only British Rail ordered DMUs like Northern....

 

[tbtc]

No, but I don't think there is another TOC operating only British Rail ordered DMUs like Northern....

FGW?

(they are getting five 180s, but their DMU fleet isn't exactly new either)

SWT? All their DMUs were British Rail ordered...

 

[WestCoast]

FGW?

(they are getting five 180s, but their DMU fleet isn't exactly new either)

SWT? All their DMUs were British Rail ordered...

FGW local lines fair enough, but SWT have nicely refurbished 158s/159s and the rest are modern or highly refurbished EMUs ('39 stock aside). OK, they have BR stock, but the average traveller wouldn't know it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ah, so the argument has moved on from "no growth" to "no brand new trains"? Does that mean that you accept that the Northern franchise *has* grown (additional trains, additional services etc)?

I agree that there could be more trains (it shows how desperate things are when I am getting excited about doubled-up 142s on Sheffield services - how low are my expectations!), but things have definitely grown.

The matter that I originally referred to was the mantra of the TOC who claim that fare increases are necessary to purchase new stock to improve the service that thay can offer to the users of their own franchise.

Nothing more...nothing less.

I specifically made reference to the terms upon which the Northern franchise was originally let, in order to point out that this particular mantra does not ring true. The growth of the franchise is not the matter in hand...it is the dilapidated stock that Northern are given in order to run the service,

Nothing more...nothing less.

 

[tbtc]

FGW local lines fair enough, but SWT have nicely refurbished 158s/159s and the rest are modern or highly refurbished EMUs ('39 stock aside). OK, they have BR stock, but the average traveller wouldn't know it.

I was taking your claim that no other TOC operates "only British Rail ordered DMUs" at face value.

Local DMU services on a number of franchises are still Pacer/Sprinter run (ATW's 175s only run on long distance services, EMT's 222s only run on long distance services, NXEA's 170s are more often found on on long distance services...).

The only difference is that Northern tend to be left with only these shorter routes (many of the longer distance parts of ATW/ FNW being given to TPE, with Virgin/ XC etc also running longer distance services through Northern "territory"), so the difference tends to be more noticeable.

But to short distance commuters (e.g. Cardiff Valleys, Mansfield - Nottingham) the fact that their TOC has got some modern DMUs for longer distance trains is going to be of little consolation for the daily journeys.

I'm not saying Northern have a great fleet, but I do get tired of people portraying it as the only "basket case", as if we are the only area that is suffering...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The growth of the franchise is not the matter in hand...

...but you were the person talking about the "no growth" franchise stipulation in previous posts...

 

[WestCoast]

I'm not saying Northern have a great fleet, but I do get tired of people portraying it as the only "basket case", as if we are the only area that is suffering...

My comment wasn't really meant to imply that Northern was a "basket case", there are rolling stock issues all over the country. However, a benefit of the current system is supposedly that new trains have been introduced. Pacers aren't even that 'old' compared to HSTs, but it's their low quality nature that is the concern.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

...but you were the person talking about the "no growth" franchise stipulation in previous posts...

I would have preferred it if you had referred to BOTH parts of that brief quote and had not selectively chosen to totally ignore the second part of it concerning the rolling stock that Northern is given to operate its franchise, to which you have made no response.

 

[emoaconr]

No, but I don't think there is another TOC operating only British Rail ordered DMUs like Northern....

Merseyrail is another... didn't they recently reject further 508 units from LO/SE last year?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Given the thousand day "gap" in ordering new stock for any franchise there are obviously a number of TOCs who have not had new trains in the last few years. It's not just Northern.

How many of these "thousand days" periods have elapsed since Northern Rail received any brand new stock?

 

[northwichcat]

Merseyrail is another... didn't they recently reject further 508 units from LO/SE last year?

Yes they got sent 'examples' stored at Eastleigh ahead of running 4tph to Chester but they rejected them in favour of using their refurbished units more intensely due to how much it would cost to keep the stored units in operation. Apparently they weren't well maintained and even the Merseyrail who have well maintained their 507/8s have had to, on two occasions, cancelled numerous services due to the number of trains in maintenance.

 

[87015]

How many of these "thousand days" periods have elapsed since Northern Rail received any brand new stock?

How many millions of pounds of subsidy have been pumped into loss making Northern operated routes? You can't expect new stock to be top of the list when the routes have no business case for running with 142s or 150s let alone new carts which are not only expensive to purchase but then have higher leasing and operating costs.

 

[WestCoast]

Merseyrail is another... didn't they recently reject further 508 units from LO/SE last year?

Well, yes, but they operate EMUs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How many millions of pounds of subsidy have been pumped into loss making Northern operated routes? You can't expect new stock to be top of the list when the routes have no business case for running with 142s or 150s let alone new carts which are not only expensive to purchase but then have higher leasing and operating costs.

I very much doubt all Northern routes require that level of subsidy, the Pacers see service on some very busy routes (including outside PTE areas where fares are quite a bit higher). Also, there are routes in Northern-land which can be a 158 one day and a 142 the next. I am sure Scotrail operates routes needing a high level of subsidy too, yet they seem to have a relatively modern fleet. I wonder why that is.....

 

[northwichcat]

How many millions of pounds of subsidy have been pumped into loss making Northern operated routes? You can't expect new stock to be top of the list when the routes have no business case for running with 142s or 150s let alone new carts which are not only expensive to purchase but then have higher leasing and operating costs.

Northern Rail received 8.8p subsidy per passenger mile in 09/10. This was reduced to 5.4p in 10/11 based on growing passenger numbers. In contrast Southeastern's subsidy of 5.2p per passenger mile in 09/10 was increased to 8.8p to allow for HS1 services.

London Midland actually receive a higher government subsidy per passenger mile than Northern, with Northern's being 0.4p lower than LM's.

 

[WestCoast]

London Midland actually receive a higher government subsidy per passenger mile than Northern, with Northern's being 0.4p lower than LM's.

...and look the DfT's support for London Midland having a modern fleet.