Fare rise, same excuse!

[elementalpat]

So the rail industry wishes all its passengers a happy new by increasing fares (in tough economic times!).

Just seems that every year they offer the same lame sentence about paying for investment, new trains etc.

Most areas the train companies have a monopoly and they are taking full use of it.

ATOC says "It is fair for passengers and taxpayers"

Of course, we will all have to wait for many years before any real benefits manifest themselves.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What "new" trains have been in the Northern franchise area over the last few years......and where are they hiding them?

 

[bILLOO]

When my 16-25 railcard runs out next year, I'll certainly be driving everywhere.

 

[Yew]

I liked it this morning, they said if you book in advance you will pay less. Of course, no mention of the massively different t&c's...

 

[elementalpat]

I liked it this morning, they said if you book in advance you will pay less. Of course, no mention of the massively different t&c's...

Well, that benefits those who travel for leisure, but those type of tickets are hard to find so lots of trawling needed.

Of course, no such luck for people who travel to work.

 

[exile]

I'm afraid these complaints ignore the uncomfortable fact that railways require something like a £5 billion subsidy per year, and the government has no money.

 

[dk1]

Always makes me smile. Media trawl out the same old rubbish. Poor hard done commuters who want new trains, faster services, more frequent services all wrapped up with pretty bows, oh & cheaper fares. Please :roll:

 

[northwichcat]

If the fare rises are 'fair' and 'funding the cost of new trains' then fare rises should be proportional to the average age of stock on the line.

Overall with the Northern diesel services on the west side the average age of stock is over 25 years old. (Liverpool to Manchester Airport being slightly better by rarely having anything other than a 156.)

 

[exile]

We have a mixture of 142s (terrible) 150s (not so bad) and 156s (OK - when the heating works).

But then the "per mile" cost is somewhat less than in the London area where trains might be rather less ancient (though also more overcrowded).

 

[ainsworth74]

Always makes me smile. Media trawl out the same old rubbish. Poor hard done commuters who want new trains, faster services, more frequent services all wrapped up with pretty bows, oh & cheaper fares.

Well it's a common thing within British society it seems. The same thing is happening on a larger scale with the welfare state, people want good free healthcare, they want good free schools, they want good state pensions and they want various other bits a bobs that we have, but none of them want to pay the taxes necessary to actually fund all of this adequately...

 

[EM2]

We have a mixture of 142s (terrible) 150s (not so bad) and 156s (OK - when the heating works).

But then the "per mile" cost is somewhat less than in the London area where trains might be rather less ancient (though also more overcrowded).

They're all newer than the Class 315s on the NXEA Liverpool St - Shenfield Metro services and the Lea Valley lines
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well it's a common thing within British society it seems. The same thing is happening on a larger scale with the welfare state, people want good free healthcare, they want good free schools, they want good state pensions and they want various other bits a bobs that we have, but none of them want to pay the taxes necessary to actually fund all of this adequately...

I'd quite happily pay more income tax if it was going on stuff like this.

 

[GodAtum]

Will it actually affect people? Anyone going to loose their job because they cannot afford to commute to work?

 

[northwichcat]

We have a mixture of 142s (terrible) 150s (not so bad) and 156s (OK - when the heating works).

So you take an average and say the average age is 26 years old.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They're all newer than the Class 315s on the NXEA Liverpool St - Shenfield Metro services and the Lea Valley lines

And the 315s are newer than anything in the Merseyrail fleet.

With EMUs having a longer expected life than DMUs then take would need to be taken in to consideration as well. Maybe in the case of EMUs minus 5 years off the average age to bring in to line with the DMUs.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

People may complain, People may act with rage.....But they will still pay their fare and they still will use the service, with fuel and everything else going up all the time it doesn't really change anything

 

[bailey65]

I am lucky i rarely have to use a train and i will always look for a national express alternative first when i do.
Shouldn't commuter numbers be noticeably dropping in this economic climate where thousands of jobs are being cut especially on the south east routes into london where city jobs are being axed by the hundreds each week that's a lot of expensive season tickets not getting renewed and that must affect the tocs revenues.
This drop in revenue and the governments gradual targeted reduction of public subsidy has to be made up for somewhere and that is from the remaining captive commuters.

 

[northwichcat]

People may complain, People may act with rage.....But they will still pay their fare and they still will use the service, with fuel and everything else going up all the time it doesn't really change anything

People will still use the service to commute but for leisure travel they might cut back.

The other day I heard someone who usually drives between Chester and Knutsford on a daily basis but caught the train one day last week saying she'd get the train more often if it was cheaper.

Knutsford doesn't have shops like M&S that Altrincham and Northwich have. If the Knutsford-Altrincham return train fare was the same or less than what M&S charge for P&P for online purchases then I could see Knutsford-Altrincham becoming more popular. And in reality which would Northern rather have on a train 30 people making the journey for £4.20 return or 100 people making the journey for £3.00 return? (Ignoring the shortest of carriages.)

 

[roblondon]

Clearly the industry/government should firstly introduce these fare increases at a different time of the year when the media might have something else to concentrate on and (just perhaps) be less lazy in their reporting.

 

[northwichcat]

Shouldn't commuter numbers be noticeably dropping in this economic climate where thousands of jobs are being cut especially on the south east routes into london where city jobs are being axed by the hundreds each week that's a lot of expensive season tickets not getting renewed and that must affect the tocs revenues.

That's not the case countrywide though. In London commuter and business travel rail travel has dropped. Elsewhere some of the previous rail commuters are out-of-work but some of the previous car commuters can no longer afford their car and have turned to the train or bus so passenger numbers at peak times aren't falling. Combine that with some subsided bus routes being removed or cut back and the reliance on the train to get people to work is certainly still very much there.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

People will still use the service to commute but for leisure travel they might cut back.

The other day I heard someone who usually drives between Chester and Knutsford on a daily basis but caught the train one day last week saying she'd get the train more often if it was cheaper.

Knutsford doesn't have shops like M&S that Altrincham and Northwich have. If the Knutsford-Altrincham return train fare was the same or less than what M&S charge for P&P for online purchases then I could see Knutsford-Altrincham becoming more popular. And in reality which would Northern rather have on a train 30 people making the journey for £4.20 return or 100 people making the journey for £3.00 return? (Ignoring the shortest of carriages.)

As someone who works that line I can honestly say its never been busier, The Duo ticket is a complete success (annoys people in Dec on Sat & Sun tho when they cannot get one) and it quite a reliable route (considering 142's and Leaf Fall) with the help of the MCRUA it has been getting more publicity and Northern are doing their utmost to strengthen services, In fact all the routes I work (and I do alot) have all seen there numbers increase quite amazingly over the last 10 years, there are a few tickets (especially in the TfGM area) like Rangers, Cheap Evening Returns Accompanied Child etc. that make tickets and travel alot cheaper, maybe other areas should consider throwing something into the pot so to speak

 

[87015]

That's not the case countrywide though. In London commuter and business travel rail travel has dropped.

Err, London & South East TOC year on year revenue and passenger growth has been in double figures all year and both are miles above 2008 levels.

 

[SF-02]

I'm afraid these complaints ignore the uncomfortable fact that railways require something like a £5 billion subsidy per year, and the government has no money.

Having the most inefficient railways in Europe doesn't help, but the passengers and taxpayers have to pick up the tab for that.

I'm giving up my job in central London. It's not longer worth it with no pay rises for 3 years and trains going up.

 

[mailman]

In the last three years the cost of my season ticket has rocketed nearly EIGHT HUNDRED POUNDS! Supposedly that money is then invested back in to keeping the service running.

I just wish they would come up with a new excuse just to keep things interesting because hearing the same lame excuse year in year out is tiresome.

Maybe its time to nationalise the railways again?

Mailman

 

[SF-02]

Always makes me smile. Media trawl out the same old rubbish. Poor hard done commuters who want new trains, faster services, more frequent services all wrapped up with pretty bows, oh & cheaper fares. Please :roll:

Well it's all about priorities. I was looking at where last years spending cuts hit on the guardians site where they had collated all spending by department and then within departments.

If I recall correctly railways had one of the biggest cuts, if not the biggest, across all of government. We could have better services and cheaper tickets if the will was there.

Couple that with all the inefficiencies and commuters have a right to be angry.

 

[Metroland]

The railway is only a monopoly going into central London, there is cut-throat competition from other transport everywhere else.

The truth is ALL transport costs are going up, and train fare rises are only around the retail price index and most train fares are strictly regulated.

That said the railway does need to become more financially efficient, better franchises, new signalling and track installation methods will all help, thus to offset the reducing tax input over the next 20 years.

 

[asylumxl]

I'm afraid these complaints ignore the uncomfortable fact that railways require something like a £5 billion subsidy per year, and the government has no money.

You say this, but then the government allows local councils to spend money on stupid "vanity" projects such as busways, traffic calming measures and various other white elephants.

They cause disruption and in the end provide no real benefit, and in the case of traffic calming, are usually removed when found to not work!

If they listened to their constituents beforehand they wouldn't have wasted time and money on such projects and further money on undoing their idiocy.

 

[Nym]

You say this, but then the government allows local councils to spend money on stupid "vanity" projects such as busways, traffic calming measures and various other white elephants.

They cause disruption and in the end provide no real benefit, and in the case of traffic calming, are usually removed when found to not work!

If they listened to their constituents beforehand they wouldn't have wasted time and money on such projects and further money on undoing their idiocy.

Here here...

 

[northwichcat]

Err, London & South East TOC year on year revenue and passenger growth has been in double figures all year and both are miles above 2008 levels.

London Waterloo passenger numbers dropped by 10 million per annum between 2007/08 and 2009/10. Kings Cross is one of the few London stations that hasn't seen a year on year fall in the last three years.

The stats show that London rail travel has been affected the most by the recession and it has resulted in First Great Western and South West Trains applying for financial support due to lower than expected passenger numbers, while operators like Northern and TPE have had higher than expected passenger numbers and have had subsidies cut because of it.

Passenger numbers are picking up now but 2008 was 3 years ago, operators have had the chance to make changes to ticket types, promotions and the number of advance tickets available to help boost passenger numbers.

As someone who works that line I can honestly say its never been busier

Probably the wrong word to use. Pre-Metrolink conversion of the Sale line 4 car DMUs were common place running a 20 minute frequency at peak times.

Peak times are a bit of an issue the Chester-Stockport services are less popular than the Chester-Manchester services and the evening through trains from Manchester aren't well timed.

 

[Nym]

Tram-Trains via Sale into Piccadilly anyone?

 

[northwichcat]

Tram-Trains via Sale into Piccadilly anyone?

That would be a good relatively cheap solution, although why not send the tram-trains to Victoria and keep the heavy rail going to Piccadilly? The biggest issue is probably interchangeable ticketing opposed to infrastructure or vehicle orders.

Another good more expensive solution would be to link the Airport spur to the Mid Cheshire line.

Hopefully they both get implemented in the next 10 years or so.

 

[kylemore]

Yes fare revenue has to pay as high a proportion of investment and operating costs as possible in order to avoid burdening the general taxpayers too much.
The situation is the same even in countries where the rail service is still wholly or largely nationalised.
What most of these countries do not have is a layer of parasites such as Souter and Lockhead (sorry-retired parasite!) creaming off a large percentage in "dividends" for essentially doing SFA.
That's what makes people angry - the knowledge that a large proportion of what is being screwed out of them is simply going straight to subsidising these innefficient, low quality con-merchants rather than paying rail workers wages or for improved infrastructure and trains.