Fare increases - folk don't like them

[MidnightFlyer]

Because it is a 1st Class Service (45mins)

Well I'm not entirely sure how that follows, but if you say so I guess. Time doesn't (in railway terms at least) necessarily always mean money. Of course it does with LM Only fares and whatnot, however not everywhere. I don't see how you can compare First Class as a service level to a time level...

 

[Goatboy]

There are lots of reasons why rail travel is differently priced in Europe, it needs a more complex comparison than walk-up prices.

Go on then - give us a GOOD reason why German citizens can purchase a ticket for £3500 that gives unlimited travel across the country all year and we cannot?
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Because it is a 1st Class Service (45mins)

There is NOTHING '1st Class' about domestic air travel. The only benefit is the time it takes - for everything else even standard class rail travel is superior.

 

[EM2]

Channel 4 news did a good compirison of walk up fares throughout Europe. You can go more than double the distance in mainland europe for the same price.

Not always.
Just had an interesting discussion on Twitter re Amsterdam Schiphol to Brussels Centraal. Off-peak walk-up fare first class out, standard class return €63.50. Journey time just under two hours, 196.5km each way. 16c per km.
London to Chesterfield. Off-peak walk-up fare, standard class both ways €85.69. Journey time just under two hours, 234.96km each way. 18c per km.

 

[Butts]

Well I'm not entirely sure how that follows, but if you say so I guess. Time doesn't (in railway terms at least) necessarily always mean money. Of course it does with LM Only fares and whatnot, however not everywhere. I don't see how you can compare First Class as a service level to a time level...

I perhaps didn't express myself very well

The speed enables a "day trip" fairly easily (try it by Train on Aberdeen to Birmingham) and is thus a premium service in my view.

 

[GNER 91128]

Right so for the money the Channel 4 reporter spent on a ticket from London to Ashford, she could have travelled:

• 122 miles from Berlin
• 127 miles from Paris
• 209 miles from Rome

 

[EM2]

Right so for the money the Channel 4 reporter spent on a ticket from London to Ashford, she could have travelled:

• 122 miles from Berlin
• 127 miles from Paris
• 209 miles from Rome

Do they have equivalent service patterns? Do they have equivalent ticket validity? Was it a peak-time journey? Was it via High Speed? Not forgetting that not every journey on the UK that's an equivalent distance will cost as much.

 

[jon0844]

Channel 4 news did a good compirison of walk up fares throughout Europe. You can go more than double the distance in mainland europe for the same price.

All the channels have been cherry picking fares today to show how expensive things are. Sky managed to get £100 and comparisons of how much distance you can go (suggesting we charge by the mile here, which is clearly not the case hence most of the problems in the first place). £100 was about 130 miles or something here, and about 700+ miles in Italy.

Some reporters did balance things by comparing walk up fares here and abroad, and advance tickets, then concluding our advance tickets are some of the cheapest in the world. But quickly dismissed it, as it's not applicable for season tickets. A fair point, but they started by comparing walk-up fares around the world instead of comparing season ticket prices, for example.

Bob Crow was on Sky to state that renationalisation would solve it all. It would be more open and transparent, and would reverse the switch that has seen passengers paying more than the taxpayer. When questioned about if it was fair to get taxpayers to subsidise rail travellers, Bob Crow started to say that he was forced to pay for people using their car and causing the floods (he didn't directly say that - he said about pollution caused by cars and referred to the floods as an example of what happens). His point seemed to be somewhat contradicted by that bit so I wasn't really sure what he was going on about after a while - besides just getting rid of the private operators.

Only a few hours earlier, Chiltern had been on explaining that it is running at a loss (at the moment) due to the investment it has been making, and all the extra fare revenue is being paid to the Government. Bob Crow had insisted that no TOC ever invest any of their own money.

No wonder Joe Public doesn't have a clue about where their money goes!

 

[radamfi]

Just had an interesting discussion on Twitter re Amsterdam Schiphol to Brussels Centraal. Off-peak walk-up fare first class out, standard class return €63.50. Journey time just under two hours, 196.5km each way. 16c per km.

Of course, that is a particularly expensive international route which has just had a price hike because of the introduction of high speed trains which go at 250 km/h. Railcard holders in Belgium and the Netherlands can get discounts on international fares. Domestic fares within the Netherlands and especially Belgium are much cheaper.

 

[GNER 91128]

Do they have equivalent service patterns? Do they have equivalent ticket validity? Was it a peak-time journey? Was it via High Speed? Not forgetting that not every journey on the UK that's an equivalent distance will cost as much.

I couldn't say, this wasn't elaborated on during the piece. I'm just posting what was on there.

 

[Paule23]

All national rail systems are subsidised to a greater or lesser extent by Governments. It is simply not possible to run an integrated network without such a subsidy. Granted some lines can and do make a profit, but overall a national network will always need a subsidy, that applies in mainland Europe, the US, Canada, the UK etc. one key question is who should pay the subsidy or contribute most to the cost of running the railway? You can keep fares down by increasing the central subsidy, but then non rail users have to pay a greater proportion to a system they do not use a receive little benefit from. The UK are currently trying to reduce this central subsidy by asking those that actually use the service pay a greater proportion of the overall cost, and I cannot say this is not fair.

I understand the arguments about money being extracted out of the system in the form of artificially created profit to private companies. This comes down to the whole argument for privatisation and can a private company run the service more efficiently me for lower cost, including the profit amount, that the state could. This is an argument you will never be able to prove one way or another, however Labour did not take steps to re-nationalise the railways and the Coalition Government is not doing so either, which suggests all Governments over the past 15 years believe privatisation and having services run by profit making private companies is the way to go. I think the contracts do need looking at to ensure profits are not guaranteed regardless of TOC performance, and TOC's should be punished, either through fines or ultimately making a loss, for poor performance. The current system isn't perfect, but neither was BR.

 

[Butts]

There is NOTHING '1st Class' about domestic air travel. The only benefit is the time it takes - for everything else even standard class rail travel is superior.

Well I flew up from Birmingham to Edinburgh this morning - it cost me £29.99 and I got an exit seat free of charge by checking in at the Airport. It was on an Embraer 195 whose seating compares favourably with a Voyager 1st Class let alone Standard and was far cleaner than most trains - with no "honk" from the bog - unlike the Pendelino I got to the Airport !!!

Journey Time 45 Minutes

 

[EM2]

Of course, that is a particularly expensive international route which has just had a price hike because of the introduction of high speed trains which go at 250 km/h. Railcard holders in Belgium and the Netherlands can get discounts on international fares. Domestic fares within the Netherlands and especially Belgium are much cheaper.

Indeed. But it was just something that came up that happened to be relevant. It's only HS as far as Antwerp.
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I couldn't say, this wasn't elaborated on during the piece. I'm just posting what was on there.

Then we can't tell if the fares quoted are better value.

 

[Westboy]

Not always.
Just had an interesting discussion on Twitter re Amsterdam Schiphol to Brussels Centraal. Off-peak walk-up fare first class out, standard class return €63.50. Journey time just under two hours, 196.5km each way. 16c per km.
London to Chesterfield. Off-peak walk-up fare, standard class both ways €85.69. Journey time just under two hours, 234.96km each way. 18c per km.

What is the equivalent far in standard both ways? Hard to compare unless we know what the mark up from std to 1st is.

 

[yorksrob]

London to Ashford isn't a typical journey compared to the rest of the country (or even the South East) as you are forced to choose between an inflated high speed fare, or an artificially slowed down classic line.

I'm somewhat sceptical about the merits of HS2 lest we be landed with the same unfortunate choice for journeys up North.

 

[EM2]

What is the equivalent far in standard both ways? Hard to compare unless we know what the mark up from std to 1st is.

I don't know, someone just happened to mention how much they'd paid, and I found the rest out.
Also depends on what you get in 1st as well.

 

[radamfi]

What is the equivalent far in standard both ways? Hard to compare unless we know what the mark up from std to 1st is.

The full list of fares can be seen here:

http://www.nshispeed.nl/nl/reis-met...el/tarieven-en-tickets-fyra-amsterdam-brussel

The highest fare is €54 single (£44) although there is currently a €39 walk on offer at the moment, available on the day of travel only. The lowest Advance type fare is €25 which seems very easy to get. Just checked for tomorrow and it is available on all Fyra trains.

 

[Goatboy]

Do they have equivalent service patterns?

Obviously you've pointed this out to suggest that the more frequent a service is, the cheaper it should be as you move more people and therefore the marginal cost per passenger is less, right?

 

[EM2]

So a walk-up is €39 single (€78 return) in standard? Suggests that it's even worse value in comparison to STP-CHD then
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Obviously you've pointed this out to suggest that the more frequent a service is, the cheaper it should be as you move more people and therefore the marginal cost per passenger is less, right?

Or that by offering a more frequent service, the customer is given a better choice and should pay more for a superior product

 

[radamfi]

So a walk-up is €39 single (€78 return) in standard? Suggests that it's even worse value in comparison to STP-CHD then

Only if you compare the Super Off-Peak Return. Off-Peak Single and Anytime Single/Return are considerably dearer.

 

[Goatboy]

Or that by offering a more frequent service, the customer is given a better choice and should pay more for a superior product

Looking forward to the £10 return from Paddington to Edgeware Road tube station using this logic

 

[aylesbury]

On BBC Oxford tonight they had a chap from the rail future group and all he could say was that he hadnt seen much improvement on Chiltern.He must have beeen in a monestery ,just pandering to the media.If we had the subsidy as in europe we could have their fares ,but even in BR days fares were put up every year at the behest of HMG ,same as now.

 

[EM2]

Looking forward to the £10 return from Paddington to Edgeware Road tube station using this logic

It's already £4.50 cash for a single.

 

[Goatboy]

Isn't that only to stop people using cash though?

You are right though, good value that eh!

 

[wintonian]

I thought this summed up the mood on twitter today.

When fares do go down where's all the "Yea thanks Virgins/ SWT/ FGW, what a wonderful service you run with you nice clean trains, friendly staff and rare delays" type tweets? - cause I can never seem to find them and surely if people are going to moan in unpleasant ways they must balance it out with occasional pleasantrys - mustn't they?

Oh, just found this website (firstcrapitalconnect.co.uk) which seems to be about slagging FCC off (rightly or wrongly), so where's the website praising FSR or FGW then?

 

[Dave1987]

Interesting seeing the post about Bob Crow. He hates being asked about his own salary and his council house. Interesting the way he states that no TOC has ever invested their own money into the rail network even though the panorama on Beeb 1 stated chiltern are investing millions in their line including building Warwick parkway. Be is a bit of an idiot really!
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I thought this summed up the mood on twitter today.

When fares do go down where's all the "Yea thanks Virgins/ SWT/ FGW, what a wonderful service you run with you nice clean trains, friendly staff and rare delays" type tweets? - cause I can never seem to find them and surely if people are going to moan in unpleasant ways they must balance it out with occasional pleasantrys - mustn't they?

Oh, just found this website (firstcrapitalconnect.co.uk) which seems to be about slagging FCC off (rightly or wrongly), so where's the website praising FSR or FGW then?

Lol I thought complementing Virgin was all people did?

 

[wintonian]

Lol I thought complementing Virgin was all people did?

That's only because the alternative from down here is XC.

 

[Flamingo]

Go on then - give us a GOOD reason why German citizens can purchase a ticket for £3500 that gives unlimited travel across the country all year and we cannot?

As I'm neither an economist or a politician I am not qualified to do so. Anything I did say would be pure guessing. Also, I don't live in Germany and know nothing about their rail service.

However, an ex-colleague is now working as a ticket inspector over there, and he says that people pay their fares, if found without a valid ticket a penalty fare is always applied, people rarely argue with them about paying the penalty, and there is zero tolerance, to the extent that trains will be held to deal with fare dodgers (anathema in his country under present management rules). So, maybe the increased revenue take over and above the grudging "I'll buy the cheapest ticket I can only if forced to" found in this country might be one reason that German railways have cheaper fares?

However, the silly season around the annual fare increases does bring out the usual simplistic sound bites, both in the media and on this forum.

Carry on.

 

[Starmill]

You are correct the rail network is getting some serious investment. The wires are going up at a seriously quick rate, Crossrail and hopefully HS2!

HS2 will bring some much needed prosperity to the north of the country as no matter how much people whinge abou the cost of it and say just upgrade what is already there, the track is very twisty and not good for High speed rail.

All this investment doesn't come from nowhere and needs cash. On GEML we currently have the most intensive service possible, plus all the freight traffic from Felixstowe. I have seen a ducment recently with put all the improvements to the infrastructure at £350m or something along those lines who is going to pay for that?

I wish I shared that sense of optimism... I can't say it seems that way to me!
Perhaps the GEML is where it's at...

I think all that talk of gold cards just fried my brain. Every time It seems I am getting a hold of the ticketing system, something new and even more complicated pops up and gets me!

 

[yorksrob]

As I'm neither an economist or a politician I am not qualified to do so. Anything I did say would be pure guessing. Also, I don't live in Germany and know nothing about their rail service.

However, an ex-colleague is now working as a ticket inspector over there, and he says that people pay their fares, if found without a valid ticket a penalty fare is always applied, people rarely argue with them about paying the penalty, and there is zero tolerance, to the extent that trains will be held to deal with fare dodgers (anathema in his country under present management rules). So, maybe the increased revenue take over and above the grudging "I'll buy the cheapest ticket I can only if forced to" found in this country might be one reason that German railways have cheaper fares?

However, the silly season around the annual fare increases does bring out the usual simplistic sound bites, both in the media and on this forum.

Carry on.

In that case, I would have to presume that they have a lot fewer unstaffed halts than we do over here.

 

[Tracky]

Well I flew up from Birmingham to Edinburgh this morning - it cost me £29.99 and I got an exit seat free of charge by checking in at the Airport. It was on an Embraer 195 whose seating compares favourably with a Voyager 1st Class let alone Standard and was far cleaner than most trains - with no "honk" from the bog - unlike the Pendelino I got to the Airport !!!

Journey Time 45 Minutes

Is £29.99 the fare you can pay on the day. And did that include getting from City to Airport and Airport to City. Parking etc.