Fare increases between London & Stansted

[yorkie]

Greater Anglia have increased fares on the London <> Stansted route, and introduced some evening restrictions.

Single fares are now £21 off-peak day single (CDS southbound/DOS northbound) and £23 for anytime day single (SDS). Furthermore, the off-peak single (DOS) in the northbound direction has an added evening peak restriction.

However, savvy passengers can pay less by booking through a split-ticketing site, such as the forum's site:

Results | RailUK Tickets

TrainSplit is a free service that makes it easy to find the cheapest train tickets for your journey.

tickets.railforums.co.uk

The optimal splitting point varies depending on where the train calls, but split ticketing sites take care of that. Bishop Stortford is the most convenient, but not all trains call there, so anyone wanting complete flexibility would need a through fare.

The cheapest calling point is Stansted Mountfitchet, though this restricts you to one train per hour; those trains that do not call at Bishops Stortford offer cheaper fares by splitting at Harlow Town.

There are ways round the fares by finishing "short" but I'm not going to publish the details here (especially as the best ones could be closed by GA by re-routing the tickets or adding restrictions).

 

[Watershed]

For reference, there used to just be a £25 Anytime Single and a £38 Anytime Return. Whilst not exactly cheap, these offered a very simple choice. Of course GA couldn't help but gouge airport passengers when implementing single leg pricing.

Those travelling off-peak both ways (a narrow time band given the evening peak restrictions) are the least badly affected, paying £42 return - 10.5% more. Those travelling off-peak one way and "peak" the other now pay £44 return - 15.7% more. Those travelling "peak" both ways now pay £46 return - 21% more.

Network Railcard holders are particularly badly affected since the £13 minimum fare means they can't take full advantage of the above-mentioned splits to mitigate the fare increases. And the masses who use contactless PAYG - naively believing they will pay the "best fare" - will be ripped off with the inflated through fares.

How on earth GA think that a programme designed to simplify fares should involve replacing two very simple fares with numerous peak and off-peak combinations, whilst introducing split ticketing opportunities, is beyond me. Just to add to the confusion, the Off-Peak restrictions vary depending on whether you buy an Off-Peak Day Single, Day Return or Day Travelcard. What could be simpler...

 

[DeverseSam]

Hopefully Ryanair will offer discounted tickets onboard

 

[Wallsendmag]

For reference, there used to just be a £25 Anytime Single and a £38 Anytime Return. Whilst not exactly cheap, these offered a very simple choice. Of course GA couldn't help but gouge airport passengers when implementing single leg pricing.

Those travelling off-peak both ways (a narrow time band given the evening peak restrictions) are the least badly affected, paying £42 return - 10.5% more. Those travelling off-peak one way and "peak" the other now pay £44 return - 15.7% more. Those travelling "peak" both ways now pay £46 return - 21% more.

Network Railcard holders are particularly badly affected since the £13 minimum fare means they can't take full advantage of the above-mentioned splits to mitigate the fare increases. And the masses who use contactless PAYG - naively believing they will pay the "best fare" - will be ripped off with the inflated through fares.

How on earth GA think that a programme designed to simplify fares should involve replacing two very simple fares with numerous peak and off-peak combinations, whilst introducing split ticketing opportunities, is beyond me. Just to add to the confusion, the Off-Peak restrictions vary depending on whether you buy an Off-Peak Day Single, Day Return or Day Travelcard. What could be simpler...

So if a SDS is £23 now and a SDS used to be £25 has it really gone up?

 

[yorkie]

So if a SDS is £23 now and a SDS used to be £25 has it really gone up?

Roughly what proportion of people do you think would only be travelling one way between London and Stansted?

Yes, a few people would book one way flights to never return to/from the UK, and some people will do an "open jaw" type journey, flying to or from a different airport, but surely the overwhelming majority of passengers will be making a return journey?

Given the Anytime Return has been abolished, people who are making a return journey (not in the same day), i.e. surely the majority of passengers between London and Stansted, are significantly worse off.

While a few people will save around 8%, the vast majority will be between 10-20% worse off.

 

[Adam Williams]

Yes, a few people would book one way flights to never return to/from the UK, and some people will do an "open jaw" type journey, flying to or from a different airport, but surely the overwhelming majority of passengers will be making a return journey?

Of course they will.

Cherry-picking examples that will apply to very few passengers to try and make the argument that "there are winners and losers" (and therefore it is more of a neutral change than it actually is in reality) has been a mainstay of Oval throughout though, hasn't it?

 

[walkingsophie]

Yes, a few people would book one way flights to never return to/from the UK, and some people will do an "open jaw" type journey, flying to or from a different airport, but surely the overwhelming majority of passengers will be making a return journey?

Given London's quantity of airports, I would expect most people to make open jaw journeys.

 

[Watershed]

Given London's quantity of airports, I would expect most people to make open jaw journeys.

Do you really think that someone who is flying from Stansted - i.e. likely because it's the cheapest option - is going to consider flying from Heathrow or City? We are really clutching at straws here to justify these changes...

I am someone who flies far more than most (40-80 flights a year) and the vast majority of my trips involve flying to and from the same London airports.

 

[MikeWh]

Given London's quantity of airports, I would expect most people to make open jaw journeys.

Agreed. My son has been abroad for away matches many times this season and I think he's only once used the same airport both ways. And that is the one which doesn't have an express service ... although @yorkie did make an April fool one year suggesting it would be introduced

London City if you're puzzled.

 

[walkingsophie]

In general I am of the opinion that return fares needlessly reduce people's flexibility and reward people with predictable return travel patterns, so I am happy with less than 2x single return fares being abolished from a general railway use perspective.

 

[Hadders]

Given London's quantity of airports, I would expect most people to make open jaw journeys.

I don’t think most people will be doing this. A small proportion might if it would save money, you’d certainly be one of them as would many people who frequent this section of the forum, but we are not representative of the population as a whole.

 

[MikeWh]

I don’t think most people will be doing this. A small proportion might if it would save money, you’d certainly be one of them as would many people who frequent this section of the forum, but we are not representative of the population as a whole.

My son, and I'm sure many others, use apps like skyscanner and say get me from London to Krakow and back on specific days. They don't specify airports necessarily.

 

[Watershed]

In general I am of the opinion that return fares needlessly reduce people's flexibility and reward people with predictable return travel patterns, so I am happy with less than 2x single return fares being abolished from a general railway use perspective.

You're happy that the already-overpriced Stansted Express has been made even more expensive for "normals" who just use contactless - whilst simultaneously becoming cheaper for "power users" who know where to buy splits?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Looking at BRFares, GA have made a right pig's ear of things.

Prior to Ovalisation, the Single was £25, Off-Peak Day Return was £28 and the Anytime Return was £38.

The Off-Peak Day Single should be £14 with an AM and PM peak restriction from Liverpool Street (AM peak only from Stansted.)

The Anytime Single probably should have dropped to £19 with an Anytime Day Return being introduced at £38. Possibly £22/£44 as a compromise level.

 

[walkingsophie]

You're happy that the already-overpriced Stansted Express has been made even more expensive for "normals" who just use contactless - whilst simultaneously becoming cheaper for "power users" who know where to buy splits?

I am happy that there is less of a reason to worry about return tickets. I know when something gets cheaper something else needs to get more expensive, so I am not particularly bothered by the exact price changes, though obviously I do enjoy cheaper tickets.

 

[Watershed]

I am happy that there is less of a reason to worry about return tickets.

Personally speaking I don't see why you would "worry" about this in an airport journey context since the flights themselves will be non-refundable and will typically represent a much larger sunk cost.

I know when something gets cheaper something else needs to get more expensive, so

They could have introduced ~54% single leg pricing, like LNER did, and probably still made a profit overall. Instead they chose to treat airport passengers as cash-cows. I don't know about you, but that rankles and it's not a good omen for the future of fares policy under GBR.

I am not particularly bothered by the exact price changes, though obviously I do enjoy cheaper tickets.

If you enjoy cheaper tickets then why does it not bother you that getting to/from Stansted is now considerably more expensive, unless you buy the specific split tickets that work for the calling pattern of the train you're catching?

 

[walkingsophie]

If you enjoy cheaper tickets then why does it not bother you that getting to/from Stansted is now considerably more expensive, unless you buy the specific split tickets that work for the calling pattern of the train you're catching?

Going one way to Stansted is now cheaper, and the split tickets that exist still used to exist. I do not see why GA should be rewarding people who use Stansted for both their outbound and inbound flight.

 

[Hadders]

It's not about rewarding people, the point is there has been a significant increase in the price for someone making a return journey.

Putting airports aside for a moment, the overwhelming majority of journeys will be returns.

 

[Watershed]

Going one way to Stansted is now cheaper

By £2 to £4 - whereas virtually everyone making a return journey is facing a £4 to £8 increase. Given that probably 10 times as many people make return journeys, I think you are missing the point in celebrating the small reduction that an even smaller minority benefit from.

the split tickets that exist still used to exist

There previously weren't any splitting opportunities. By increasing the through fares, GA introduced split opportunities. So not only have the through fares been made far more complicated, but people now need to consider which split ticket works out cheapest for them.

I do not see why GA should be rewarding people who use Stansted for both their outbound and inbound flight.

I agree that single leg pricing is good in principle, but the way GA have implemented it is unnecessarily complicated and bad for the overwhelming majority of people. If the choice were between the old fare structure and this new one, I know which one I prefer.

 

[Deerfold]

My son, and I'm sure many others, use apps like skyscanner and say get me from London to Krakow and back on specific days. They don't specify airports necessarily.

I don't think most people are doing this - and for many destinations it's cheaper to stay with the same operator and airport both ways. I fly fairly often and find it's usually easier to save on fares by varying travel times than by going to a different airport in both directions

 

[LickeyIncliner]

The discussion so far seems only to have considered London-area residents travelling to Stansted - presumably the changes also make it more complicated for non-UK residents flying into Stansted who will have to grapple with a more complex set of ticket choices ?

 

[Sealink]

Do you really think that someone who is flying from Stansted - i.e. likely because it's the cheapest option - is going to consider flying from Heathrow or City? We are really clutching at straws here to justify these changes...

I am someone who flies far more than most (40-80 flights a year) and the vast majority of my trips involve flying to and from the same London airports.

I've done it.

Got a cheap flight to Palma from Stansted and a cheap flight back to London City.

I also used to fly to and from Scotland a lot, out from Luton back to Gatwick etc - but at some point I decided that everything about Stansted was too awful

In the era of single leg airfares (no "Saturday night stay" required to get a cheap return) I imagine many do, especially with apps like Skyscanner where you can specify "London" rather than a specific airport, but I'd say it's still a minority.

These fares though do make Stansted even less attractive. Although. I see that an Advance Single from Dorchester South to Stansted starts at £22.60

 

[Belperpete]

I don't think most people are doing this - and for many destinations it's cheaper to stay with the same operator and airport both ways. I fly fairly often and find it's usually easier to save on fares by varying travel times than by going to a different airport in both directions

Most people fly to and from the same airport, for the simple reason that most people drive, and leaving your car at one airport and returning to a different airport would be a nightmare. It is only the small proportion of people that use the train that would ever consider open-jaw journeys.

 

[saismee]

There previously weren't any splitting opportunities. By increasing the through fares, GA introduced split opportunities. So not only have the through fares been made far more complicated, but people now need to consider which split ticket works out cheapest for them.

And when Trainline/Uber/Omio/TrainPal/Trip split the ticket without the passenger understanding, we will start to "enjoy" seeing the influx of "Help! Stansted Penalty Fare!" threads from people who purchased an "Anytime Day Single" and didn't understand that the split meant they could only take 1 in 4 trains. Working out which split is cheapest is one thing, having an app do it to an unsuspecting customer is worse. I personally enjoy trying to find the cheapest split myself, and have found better splits than the forum's site can offer, but it's a bit ridiculous on a direct A -> B journey between two major stations.

 

[yorksrob]

The latest salvo in the DfT's fares complification programme.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Going one way to Stansted is now cheaper, and the split tickets that exist still used to exist. I do not see why GA should be rewarding people who use Stansted for both their outbound and inbound flight.

There previously weren't any splitting opportunities. By increasing the through fares, GA introduced split opportunities. So not only have the through fares been made far more complicated, but people now need to consider which split ticket works out cheapest for them.

I have very often split at Stansted Airport thanks to some very good longer distance fares from the Midlands. And those very good value tickets still exist for passengers ending their journey there too.

 

[jayah]

My son, and I'm sure many others, use apps like skyscanner and say get me from London to Krakow and back on specific days. They don't specify airports necessarily.

Most people drive to the airport, but it is fairly few doing open jaw flights.

Ryanair, who have the vast majority of all flights at Stansted won't do open jaw on their own flights, you have to book separately. But usually if there is a choice of airline the same one is cheapest both ways.

But for the many cons of this Oval business, at least we have stopped fining honest tourist visitors for using Contactless to Stansted.

Charging a Penalty Fare and helpfully leaving them with an incomplete journey on the same card, a few hours before they left the country was despicable, and GA were still at it in the final week.

 

[agk2126]

It would be nice to see cheaper Advance options between London and Stansted, like on EMR to Luton or GWR to Gatwick (from Reading). CrossCountry sells quite affordable Advance Singles between Birmingham and Stansted.

There are many challenges involving airports and inflexible train tickets (e.g. reroutes or delayed flights) but plenty of passengers (me included!) would happily take these risks to save money on the rail fare.

 

[jon81uk]

The discussion so far seems only to have considered London-area residents travelling to Stansted - presumably the changes also make it more complicated for non-UK residents flying into Stansted who will have to grapple with a more complex set of ticket choices ?

Project Oval made it much simpler for non-UK residents, tap your contactless card and that's it. Prior to the change there was significant signage at Liverpool Street and Tottenham Hale warning travellers not to use contactless or Oyster, now you just tap your contactless card and get on the train.

 

[Hadders]

It would be nice to see cheaper Advance options between London and Stansted, like on EMR to Luton or GWR to Gatwick (from Reading). CrossCountry sells quite affordable Advance Singles between Birmingham and Stansted.

There are many challenges involving airports and inflexible train tickets (e.g. reroutes or delayed flights) but plenty of passengers (me included!) would happily take these risks to save money on the rail fare.

My view is that Advance tickets should not be sold between stations where contactless PAYG operates. Part of the rationale behind the roll out of contactless is to simplify fares (which is what people say they want), and Project Oval style simplification while at the same time selling train specific Advance tickets where a turn up and go service operates is not at all simple.

I’m also not convinced that booked train only tickets are the right solution for airport services. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be cheaper fares to airports if you book ahead of travel, and these could be quota controlled to help manage yield, but tying people down to one specific train is, in my opinion, a recipe for confusions and upset when things go wrong.