Fare evasion?

[underthesignal]

Hi. I travel a lot between Finsbury Park, Alexandra Palace and Cambridge. I am scrupulous in buying a ticket that covers me from FPK to CBG and back again (I buy them online, via the Railboard app). Today my journey was from Palmers Green to Alexandra Palace (paid contactless, didn’t leave AP station) and then from AP to CBG. I get on the train, realise I don’t have a ticket and buy one there and then (FPK-CBG anytime day return - FPK is further away from CBG than AP is and the cost of the ticket is the same, it’s easier to get home from FPK than AP). The train leaves the station a couple of minutes later.

About 30 mins later my ticket is inspected (No problem. I have a ticket) and it comes up as that I bought the ticket after the train left. Which I didn’t. The inspector is not interested that I have a timed receipt and we can see what time the train left AAP. Instead I get an interview under caution on the train and a witness receipt and I’m left in an absolute tizz that I’m going to be prosecuted and lose my job.

I’ve calmed down a bit now, but I would like to know, in your experience, what’s likely to happen next? I have considered getting a solicitor involved, but that might be the panic speaking.

Thanks

 

[Haywain]

These two statements don't add up:

I get on the train, realise I don’t have a ticket and buy one there and then

it comes up as that I bought the ticket after the train left. Which I didn’t.

 

[jfollows]

Presumably you bought the ticket on the train but before the doors closed and it left. If so, unfortunately (https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf) it could still be an offence.

If you want to post up the ticket you bought we can probably extract the time of purchase for you.

 

[underthesignal]

These two statements don't add up:

Hey - thanks for replying - the train was still in the platform when I bought the ticket.

 

[furlong]

Can you set out the full timeline for us?
- Touched (in) contactless on reader at Palmers Green at what time?
- Boarded train there at what time?
- Went to gateline at Ally Pally and touched (out) contactless (but didn't go through gate) at what time?
- Boarded train (arriving slightly early) at what time?
- Bought Finsbury Park to Cambridge ticket at what time?
- Train departed Ally Pally at what time?

(You can get the conctactless touch information by registering on the TfL website if you didn't already.)
Also confirm this is indeed contactless (e.g. with credit card) and not Oyster.

 

[John R]

Can you set out the full timeline for us?
- Touched (in) contactless on reader at Palmers Green at what time?
- Boarded train there at what time?
- Went to gateline at Ally Pally and touched (out) contactless (but didn't go through gate) at what time?
- Boarded train (arriving slightly early) at what time?
- Bought Finsbury Park to Cambridge ticket at what time?
- Train departed Ally Pally at what time?

(You can get the conctactless touch information by registering on the TfL website if you didn't already.)

Yes, about to make the same point. evidence that supports that you boarded at Ally Pally could be critical in tour defence.

 

[underthesignal]

Presumably you bought the ticket on the train but before the doors closed and it left. If so, unfortunately (https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf) it could still be an offence.

If you want to post up the ticket you bought we can probably extract the time of purchase for you.

 

[furlong]

Additionally what was the precise ticket you purchased? How much did you pay for it?

 

[Crithylum]

The train probably left Finsbury Park before purchase of the ticket. That is likely why the inspector rejected it

 

[furlong]

OK - we get that from the scan you uploaded; anytime day return £39.30 08:37 this morning

 

[underthesignal]

Can you set out the full timeline for us?
- Touched (in) contactless on reader at Palmers Green at what time?
- Boarded train there at what time?
- Went to gateline at Ally Pally and touched (out) contactless (but didn't go through gate) at what time?
- Boarded train (arriving slightly early) at what time?
- Bought Finsbury Park to Cambridge ticket at what time?
- Train departed Ally Pally at what time?

(You can get the conctactless touch information by registering on the TfL website if you didn't already.)
Also confirm this is indeed contactless (e.g. with credit card) and not Oyster.

PAL - touched in - Apple Pay - 08:15
APP - readers inside AAP not working, went straight to platform
AAP - bought ticket at 0837
AAP - train leaves at 0838

It’s tight. But I 100% bought that ticket before the train left.

 

[jfollows]

OK - we get that from the scan you uploaded; anytime day return £39.30 08:37 this morning

2C12 left at just after 08:33 if that was the right train (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G11440/2024-06-18/detailed).
Apologies, I was thinking Finsbury Park.
EDIT Train running information attached in case it's useful for future reference.

 

[furlong]

And the train (2C12) is recorded as arriving at Ally Pally 08:36 and departing 08:38

 

[AlterEgo]

2C12 left at just after 08:33 if that was the right train.

The OP is at Alexandra Palace.

 

[underthesignal]

The train probably left Finsbury Park before purchase of the ticket. That is likely why the inspector rejected it

Ah. Yes. That makes some sense. Except that I got on at Alexandra Palace. I couldn’t physically have to to Finsbury Park from Palmers Green on the 08:22, it arrives (08:35) after the 08:33 to Cambridge leaves.

 

[AlterEgo]

And the train (2C12) is recorded as arriving at Ally Pally 08:36 and departing 08:38

Indeed.

OP @underthesignal did you make any admissions to the inspector? Did you say anything?

Did you say you boarded the train and bought a ticket, and then the doors closed and it left? If so, you have admitted to committing the offence.

 

[Haywain]

It’s tight. But I 100% bought that ticket before the train left.

You bought a ticket from Finsbury Park after the train had left Finsbury Park.

 

[furlong]

So where did you complete your contactless journey by touching out?

 

[underthesignal]

You bought a ticket from Finsbury Park after the train had left Finsbury Park.

This is where it gets a bit edgy and I don’t know what’s right.

I want to return to Finsbury Park not Alexandra Palace so I buy a ticket that covers me from FPK-CBG. Even though I get on one stop closer to CBG on the same train / line.

 

[jfollows]

You bought a ticket from Finsbury Park after the train had left Finsbury Park.

Exactly, and there's nothing wrong with that provided the train wasn't boarded (at Alexandra Palace) after the ticket was purchased, but on the face of it the inspector won't have known that and made the assumption that the train was boarded at Finsbury Park instead.

 

[furlong]

Did you say you boarded the train and bought a ticket, and then the doors closed and it left? If so, you have admitted to committing the offence.

Except if the OP didn't actually touch out, then the contactless card remained a valid ticket during boarding!

 

[jfollows]

This is where it gets a bit edgy and I don’t know what’s right.

I want to return to Finsbury Park not Alexandra Palace so I buy a ticket that covers me from FPK-CBG. Even though I get on one stop closer to CBG on the same train / line.

That's perfectly valid, provided you don't actually board the train before purchase.

 

[underthesignal]

So where did you complete your contactless journey by touching out?

I didn’t. The readers on the platform at AP were off.

Indeed.

OP @underthesignal did you make any admissions to the inspector? Did you say anything?

Did you say you boarded the train and bought a ticket, and then the doors closed and it left? If so, you have admitted to committing the offence.

Probably. I was panicking by this point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jun 2024 ==

Except if the OP didn't actually touch out, then the contactless card remained a valid ticket during boarding!

Eh? Are you saying that because I didn’t tap out that my contactless was still valid for travel (I think that contactless is valid for travel all the way at almost CBG)

 

[jfollows]

Eh? Are you saying that because I didn’t tap out that my contactless was still valid for travel (I think that contactless is valid for travel all the way at almost CBG)

Contactless is valid as far as Welwyn Garden City only. From your first post I'm pretty sure you were beyond here when your ticket was checked, so unfortunately your contactless ticket which hadn't been tapped-out was no longer valid.
EDIT But it was valid when you boarded as others have pointed out, which is probably more important.

 

[AlterEgo]

Eh? Are you saying that because I didn’t tap out that my contactless was still valid for travel (I think that contactless is valid for travel all the way at almost CBG)

So how did you pay for your fare for the first bit then? As @furlong says, if you failed to tap out, even by accident or because the readers were off, when you boarded, you did actually have a valid ticket. This provides a clear defence against the Bylaw charge.

Where were you inspected exactly?

 

[furlong]

It's all going to come down to why you didn't walk over the bridge to the gateline at Alexandra Palace to touch out the contactless. (And ideally buy the second ticket at that point, and scan it to re-enter the station.) There was sufficient time to do that.

Make sure you can access the contactless record on the TfL website. There might be an option to supply a missing touch, but don't do that yet - it would need careful consideration if you're relying on a technicality of having overlapping tickets.

 

[talldave]

So, ironically you boarded a train with a "valid" ticket, and bought another ticket valid for the train you were on before the train departed. However, the ticket you bought wouldn't have been valid if you'd been on the train where the ticket was from!! Complicated.

 

[furlong]

So basically wait for the paperwork and see what it says. If it alleges you boarded at Finsbury Park, you have evidence that's impossible, so a prosecution for that would go nowhere. If it alleges you boarded at Ally Pally without a valid ticket and admitted that in interview, the contactless TfL record should refute that (and for cleanliness you could probably get the open journey completed consistent with that, but technically what happens after-the-fact is irrelevant). These things are treated by the courts as simple matters of fact. So even if you didn't realise at the time or show the card, it's only the underlying facts that count - not knowledge of them at different times.

 

[underthesignal]

So how did you pay for your fare for the first bit then? As @furlong says, if you failed to tap out, even by accident or because the readers were off, when you boarded, you did actually have a valid ticket. This provides a clear defence against the Bylaw charge.

Where were you inspected exactly?

Unsure. I just assumed that I’d get charged the full 13.50 from TFL because I couldn’t tap out at AP.

Inspected at Knebworth.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jun 2024 ==


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jun 2024 ==

I guess there’s a second question here - what’s the likelihood that they’ll want me to pay some fine / out of court / take me to court? They lost no revenue, it was literally a matter of a minute’s inattention (between 08:36 and 08:37), never done this before. Right now, I’d pay for this to go away.

 

[jfollows]

I guess there’s a second question here - what’s the likelihood that they’ll want me to pay some fine / out of court / take me to court? They lost no revenue, it was literally a matter of a minute’s inattention (between 08:36 and 08:37), never done this before. Right now, I’d pay for this to go away.

They'd probably want you to pay an out of court settlement rather than take you to court if you were guilty, but on what you've said - although it's a bit complex - you're probably not guilty, so if you wait for them to write to you and come back here we can assist you in making your case. They will probably make a number of incorrect assumptions and it's a bit of a sausage machine until real people get involved.