Fare Evasion

[Spacerock]

If you have a look at other threads seek out a fairly regular post from @Hadders which has an outline of how best to respond to these letters in order to try and obtain an out of court settlement, which should be your objective. You can then work on a draft to send and if you think it would help, post that up here for people to check for you.

Thank you , I have wrote it but not sure if I need to mention how long I was doing it .
I apologise unreservedly and sincerely for having the incorrect travel card for the appropriate zones in which I was travelling. It was a grave error of judgement for which there can be no excuse.

These actions has led me to develop anxiety and have a hard time sleeping as my poor decision caused this mishap.

My husband has genetic eye condition , he really struggles daily base as it affects his vision if his condition continues to decline he wouldn’t be able to live independent life and I would need to provide for whole family including my daughter.

If this matter were to escalate further into court, it would compromise my work as I need to keep a clean record and therefore be devastating to my family as I am the sole provider for income.

I am happy to make immediate payment of the all-reasonable costs + any admin cost which may have occurred that my actions have caused and avoid a criminal record thereby allowing me to continue to my work and provide for my family.



I sincerely hope that you will accept my offer.



Yours Faithfully,

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2024 ==

Hi I have written the letter.

I would Like to express my sincerely apology for having the incorrect travel card for the appropriate zones in which I was travelling. It was a grave error of judgement for which there can be no excuse.
These actions has led me to develop anxiety and have a hard time sleeping as my poor decision caused this mishap.

My husband has genetic eye condition , he really struggles daily base as it affects his vision if his condition continues to decline he wouldn’t be able to live independent life and I would need to provide for whole family including my daughter.

If this matter were to escalate further into court, it would compromise my work as I need to keep a clean record and therefore be devastating to my family as I am the sole provider for income.

I am happy to make immediate payment of the all-reasonable costs + any admin cost which may have occurred that my actions have caused and avoid a criminal record thereby allowing me to continue to my work and provide for my family.



I sincerely hope that you will accept my offer.



Yours Faithfully,

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you , I have wrote it but not sure if I need to mention how long I was doing it .
I apologise unreservedly and sincerely for having the incorrect travel card for the appropriate zones in which I was travelling. It was a grave error of judgement for which there can be no excuse.

These actions has led me to develop anxiety and have a hard time sleeping as my poor decision caused this mishap.

My husband has genetic eye condition , he really struggles daily base as it affects his vision if his condition continues to decline he wouldn’t be able to live independent life and I would need to provide for whole family including my daughter.

If this matter were to escalate further into court, it would compromise my work as I need to keep a clean record and therefore be devastating to my family as I am the sole provider for income.

I am happy to make immediate payment of the all-reasonable costs + any admin cost which may have occurred that my actions have caused and avoid a criminal record thereby allowing me to continue to my work and provide for my family.



I sincerely hope that you will accept my offer.



Yours Faithfully,

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2024 ==

Hi I have written the letter.

I would Like to express my sincerely apology for having the incorrect travel card for the appropriate zones in which I was travelling. It was a grave error of judgement for which there can be no excuse.
These actions has led me to develop anxiety and have a hard time sleeping as my poor decision caused this mishap.

My husband has genetic eye condition , he really struggles daily base as it affects his vision if his condition continues to decline he wouldn’t be able to live independent life and I would need to provide for whole family including my daughter.

If this matter were to escalate further into court, it would compromise my work as I need to keep a clean record and therefore be devastating to my family as I am the sole provider for income.

I am happy to make immediate payment of the all-reasonable costs + any admin cost which may have occurred that my actions have caused and avoid a criminal record thereby allowing me to continue to my work and provide for my family.



I sincerely hope that you will accept my offer.



Yours Faithfully,

Hi - thanks for posting your draft
ref your question:

- Unless they are asking you how often you did this it is probably best that you do not mention it at this stage. If they check their records and think you did this on more than one occasion they will come back to you and ask about it. At that stage you can answer that.

Re your draft - looks generally OK - I have suggested some minor adjustments and corrections below that you could consider if you think they are helpful - I hope these are clear from the bold and italic bits (suggested new wording) and strikethroughs (suggested deletions or moved wording):


Dear Sir/Madam

Your reference: [Insert any reference numbers from the Southeatern Trains documents]

I would Like to express my sincerely apology for having the incorrect travel card for the appropriate zones in which I was travelling. It was a grave error of judgement for which there can be no excuse.

These actions has led me to develop anxiety and have a hard time sleeping as my poor decision caused this mishap. mistake on my part. I am very sorry for what has happened and I now understand the seriousness of this. I now properly appreciate that I should have paid the correct fare for my travel and I will make sure that I do this on every occasion in future.

My husband has genetic eye condition, he really struggles on a daily basis as it affects his vision. If if his condition continues to decline he wouldn’t be able to live an independent life and I would need to provide and care for my whole family including my daughter.

If this matter were to escalate further into court, it would compromise my work as I need to keep a clean record and therefore be devastating to my family as I am the sole provider for income.

I would be most grateful if you could give your sympathetic consideration to allowing this matter to be resolved without the need for court action.

I am happy to make immediate payment of the travel costs owed plus all-reasonable costs + any admin cost which may have occurred that my actions have caused. This would allow me to and avoid a criminal record thereby allowing me to avoid a criminal record and continue in to my work and provide for my family.

I sincerely hope that you can look sympathetically on my request. will accept my offer.

Yours Faithfully,


Keep a copy of what you send back to them and consider sending it signed for post so that you know it gets to them

 

[Hadders]

@WesternLancer has suggested some good amendments to your draft so this is what I would send.

 

[Spacerock]

Thank you everyone, I am going to send it over, hopefully I will get out of court settlement, Really appreciate all the help, I will send it tomorrow.

 

[Hadders]

Please do let us know how you get on, as it helps us to provide assistance to others in future.

 

[Spacerock]

back in march I was stopped not having right ticket for correct zone .
I was sent letter to explain things of my said of story, I did saying sorry and admitting my mistake , asking for our of court settlement, now they sent me letter asking to attend court or plead guilty and don’t attend, I am not in UK my dad is sick , they asking me attend end of month .
If I plead guilty what happens, what’s the best thing I can do right now . Thank you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2024 ==

If you have a look at other threads seek out a fairly regular post from @Hadders which has an outline of how best to respond to these letters in order to try and obtain an out of court settlement, which should be your objective. You can then work on a draft to send and if you think it would help, post that up here for people to check for you.

I have received letter asking to attend court or plead guilty. I am not in UK I am away my dad is sick , what’s the best thing to do .

 

[alholmes]

Did you send the letter to Southeastern on/around 16 April, and did you you get proof of sending / receipt?

in terms of next steps, you need to contact Southeastern urgently (tomorrow!) to check if they received this letter in April. It’s possible they didn’t receive it, so have moved to prosecution.

if you don’t resolve this with Southeastern before the court date, and assuming you don’t return to the UK for the court hearing, then you will be found guilty in your absence, and the court will impose a fine & costs.

 

[Spacerock]

I have proof of receipt sending my letter and it was delivered. Letter says if I plead guilty they might settle it with penalty

 

[AlterEgo]

Letter says if I plead guilty they might settle it with penalty

No, if you plead guilty you are convicted of the offence and there is no settlement, it's as simple as that.

Please upload this letter with your details redacted.

 

[WesternLancer]

We’ve seen a handful of cases in recent days where it seems Southeastern never got replies or did not act on replies sent that senders had proof of receipt for. That’s not very good really.

I suspect this case is another one.

OP needs to urgently make contact with Southeastern to check this.

 

[Spacerock]

No, if you plead guilty you are convicted of the offence and there is no settlement, it's as simple as that.

Please upload this letter with your details redacted.

Here is one copy of letter

Mod Note - I have removed the attachments the OP uploaded as they still showed the OP’s name but I can confirm it is a s5.3 prosecution.

 

[Spacerock]

We’ve seen a handful of cases in recent days where it seems Southeastern never got replies or did not act on replies sent that senders had proof of receipt for. That’s not very good really.

I suspect this case is another one.

OP needs to urgently make contact with Southeastern to check this.

I have got their number and email address, should I contact solicitor ? Should I email
Them
Now saying please if they consider out court settlement.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have got their number and email address, should I contact solicitor ? Should I email
Them
Now saying please if they consider out court settlement.

Show us the paperwork first so we know exactly what you’re dealing with. This is important becuase you talk about pleading guilty and settling out of court as if they are the same thing. They aren’t, and we need to give accurate advice.

 

[alholmes]

Contact them by all means possible tomorrow. If they don’t answer the phone, then send an email.

See what response you get from them first before considering a solicitor. If they hadn’t read your email from April, it’s possible they may offer you a settlement when they’ve considered it.

 

[Spacerock]

Show us the paperwork first so we know exactly what you’re dealing with. This is important becuase you talk about pleading guilty and settling out of court as if they are the same thing. They aren’t, and we need to give accurate advice.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is a court letter which is telling you that you are being prosecuted for the offence.

Is there some other paperwork which is giving you the impression that if you “plead guilty they might settle without penalty”? I don’t see how you can think that from that correspondence. Either way it is in your interests to get in touch with them today as @alholmes suggests.

 

[Spacerock]

This is a court letter which is telling you that you are being prosecuted for the offence.

Is there some other paperwork which is giving you the impression that if you “plead guilty they might settle without penalty”? I don’t see how you can think that from that correspondence. Either way it is in your interests to get in touch with them today as @alholmes suggests.

Yes there is a letter attached to plead guilty and don’t attend court

 

[Gonzoiku]

Here is one copy of letter

Mod Note - I have removed the attachments the OP uploaded as they still showed the OP’s name but I can confirm it is a s5.3 prosecution.

How can it be a valid s5.3 prosecution when the accused has clearly given name and address?

GZ

 

[skyhigh]

How can it be a valid s5.3 prosecution when the accused has clearly given name and address?

GZ

You are thinking of s5.1.

 

[Gonzoiku]

You are thinking of s5.1.

I bow to your mind-reading skills

GZ

 

[furlong]

Let's quote the offence:

(b)Having paid his fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;

That is in a category of case where there has been previous disagreement on the forum about the appropriateness of the charge to the circumstances.

The journey was from Zone 4 (Grove Park) to Zone 1 (London Bridge). The ticket held (post #21) covered Zone 3 to Zone 1.
It states the offence was committed "at London Bridge".

One view is that you were missing a ticket at the beginning of your journey not the end, so you did not travel "beyond" the distance you paid for - and certainly not beyond London Bridge where they currently allege an offence occurred. Taken to the extreme, on this reading, the offence might catch any holder of any ticket travelling anywhere that their ticket did not cover - having paid his fare for travel between A & B he travelled between C & D without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance.

Perhaps other contributors might comment on whether how well the facts might fit this particular offence?

 

[soil]

I can't see how the charge can be appropriate or how the OP can be guilty of it.

5 (3)(a) applies where a person travels or attempts to travel without previously paying "his fare", and intends to avoid it.

In such a case, the OP would be guilty when he boards the train, because he has travelled without previously paid his fare (which would require him to tap in), and he has intent to avoid the fare.

However he has been charged with 5 (3)(b) which provides for travelling beyond. There is a reason we have two offences - 5(3)(a) is for intentional fare evasion where, at the start of your journey, you have no valid ticket, and 5(3)(b) is for intentional fare evasion where you have a valid ticket for the start of your journey, so are not guilty of 5(3)(a), but you intentionally travel beyond, so that the offence is committed during the journey, at whatever point the mens rea (intent to avoid) and actus reus (travelling beyond the distance on the ticket).

There is no logical reason to charge under 5 (3)(b), because the 5 (3)(a) offence was complete at Grove Park - he had not previously paid his fare, and intended to avoid the fare.

There is not really a good argument that because the OP has a zonal ticket he had 'paid his fare', because "his fare" means the fare for that person on that journey. E.g., if he had bought a child's ticket, then he would not have paid his fare and the charge should be "without having previously paid his fare", not "having paid his fare for a certain distance". Clearly the zone 1-3 ticket would not be relevant if he was charged with fare avoidance in Newcastle, and it's not relevant here for a journey from zone 4 - he has paid no fare for that journey UNLESS he taps in his Oyster, which he did not do.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

But surely, if the OP did not tap in at Grove Park (and assuming she did not alight at Hither Green, attempt to exit and tap back in using her zone 1-3 oyster) she hasn't paid for the whole of her journey?

 

[Haywain]

I can't see how the charge can be appropriate or how the OP can be guilty of it.

And, in court, if that defence were to be presented the prosecution could ask to amend the charge, and would then complete the successful prosecution.

 

[Spacerock]

And, in court, if that defence were to be presented the prosecution could ask to amend the charge, and would then complete the successful prosecution.

What should I do now , should I instruct Solicitors . It’s better to go to the court. Guy who was questioning me made false accusations against me and was trying to me to say I was doing it for over long time .

 

[furlong]

However he has been charged with 5 (3)(b) which provides for travelling beyond. There is a reason we have two offences - 5(3)(a) is for intentional fare evasion where, at the start of your journey, you have no valid ticket, and 5(3)(b) is for intentional fare evasion where you have a valid ticket for the start of your journey, so are not guilty of 5(3)(a), but you intentionally travel beyond, so that the offence is committed during the journey, at whatever point the mens rea (intent to avoid) and actus reus (travelling beyond the distance on the ticket).

One of the arguments put forward before was that the Railways Clauses Consolidation Act 1845 Section 103 already covered that situation so what new mischief was 5.3(b) intended to cover? It necessarily must be broader in scope in some way.

 

[Haywain]

What should I do now , should I instruct Solicitors .

No, you're a good way off needing that.

It’s better to go to the court.

No, it isn't.

 

[Spacerock]

No, you're a good way off needing that.

No, it isn't.

Whole story is this , previous day I traveled from London Bridge to Grove Park , I taped at London Bridge and Grove Park , I usually would have travel zone 1-3 and used cash on my Oyster card if I traveled outside my travel zone , on next morning I took bus to Grove Park and then boarded the train to London Bridge , I taped it on but since my card was in negative balance it didn’t open barriers at London Bridge. ( when I tapped in I was in hurry as train was standing at the platform so didn’t pay attention to it , when guy at London Bridge questioned me I got scared and lied I traveled from Lewisham , when he checked my oyster he said I used bus 261 and got off at Grove Park and intentionally was travelling from there every day avoid paying extra fees. I said I didn’t but he assumed so as he said he was local guy and knew there no barriers at Grove Park.
He started saying what I was doing was criminal offence and I would go to court, I started crying saying and become really dizzy, he said to me he was accused me of lying and told me I should give him my ID card since I couldn’t be trusted.
( I have called southern eastern and spoke to the lady asking her to reconsider and was willing to settle out of court, I said if I am convicted I will lose my job , she gave me email address and asked me to contact them , they usually respond quickly waiting from them) solicitor quoted me 700£ and won’t get conviction.
My court hearing is at 28th of August and this incident happened in march.
What course of action should I take .

 

[soil]

One of the arguments put forward before was that the Railways Clauses Consolidation Act 1845 Section 103 already covered that situation so what new mischief was 5.3(b) intended to cover? It necessarily must be broader in scope in some way.

RCCA 1845 s 103 covered:

RORA s5 3(a)
RORA s 5 3(b)
plus
refusing to leave the train at the destination (not repealed by SLRA 1892)

This leaves

RORA s 5(1) - refusing to give name & address
RORA s 5(3)(c) - giving false name & address
RORA s 5(4) - clarifies that original fare remains recoverable

as the new elements from RORA 1889

s 5 was a bit sloppy, but it was essentially to enhance the powers in RCCA 1845 s 103/104

 

[island]

And, in court, if that defence were to be presented the prosecution could ask to amend the charge, and would then complete the successful prosecution.

Correct.

when he checked my oyster he said I used bus 261 and got off at Grove Park

For what it's worth, that wouldn't be shown on an Oyster inspection, as the points of boarding and alighting aren't recorded, only the bus number.

RCCA 1845 s 103 covered:

RORA s5 3(a)
RORA s 5 3(b)
plus
refusing to leave the train at the destination (not repealed by SLRA 1892)

This leaves

RORA s 5(1) - refusing to give name & address
RORA s 5(3)(c) - giving false name & address
RORA s 5(4) - clarifies that original fare remains recoverable

as the new elements from RORA 1889

RORA s5 (3) (a) covers quite a bit more ground than RCCA s103. It includes, amongst other things,

• Intentionally travelling in 1st class with a standard ticket
• Having no ticket at all (as a passenger would never "arrive at a point to which his fare is paid")
• Misuse of discounts
• Reusing single/return tickets

So it's certainly not otiose.

I tend to agree with furlong that 5 (3) (b) doesn't seem to add a lot.