Fare evasion. The second time... :(

[moonface123]

Hello,

I was caught not having a train ticket when I got off at London Bridge. I borded the train in Brighton. Long story short, I always pay my train fares. I wanted to buy the ticket on the train. I couldn't, so I wanted to get one when I got off. When I got off, I decided to save some money and I asked for a ticket from Gatwick Airport. It was stupid. My company even pays for my tickets. It was a spontaneous decision. I really didn't plan for it.

The transport police asked me where I was coming from. I said Gatwick. Long story short, I admitted that I was coming from Brighton. I am waiting for the letter from the train company.

The only problem is that about a year ago I used my girlfriends Oyster. I had to go to court. I paid the fine and I have never done it since (actually that was the only time I did it). With true honesty, I have only done anything like this twice. TFL and this.

I really want to settle out of court. I already got a criminal record because of the TFL court.

Do you think I can settle out of court? I work in the education sector. I can explain 1 but I am really scared about having 2. It happened today. Can anyone give me some advice? I don't mind how much I pay, I just really want to avoid another court date and criminal record.

Should I tell them that I already had a TFL case or should I keep it quiet? I just collected my previous travel tickets between Brighton and London. It clearly shows a pattern of Monday - Thursday travel movements in February. All my tickets are there, I also found some of the recipes for the card transaction (as I bought it with a credit card). I photocopied my credit card (blanked out the numbers apart from the last 4 digits), so it clearly shows that I bought these tickets as my name is on the card and the recipe has the last 4 digits of the card on it.

What could you recommend?
Many thanks!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On more thing.
My first thing was to go to the ticket office at London Bridge to buy a ticket. That's where I met the transport police. It doens't change the fact that I said the incorrect train stop.

 

[Ferret]

Who interviewed you this time? A TOC's revenue protection staff, PC Plod, or both?

Let's assume for a second that you're being subject to in effect, a private prosecution from a train company. If you were employed in their prosecution department, and somebody was presented to you who had already been prosecuted once - what would you do? Would you accept an out of Court settlement? The key to it is whether your existing conviction was recordable or not I'd say, or whether IRCAS already have a record of you.

I'm sure you're aware that the issue with this offence is that it's RoR Act territory for intent to avoid the fare, which upon conviction carries a criminal record.

 

[tony6499]

How did you board at Brighton without a ticket as the gates are manned 24/7 ?

 

[moonface123]

Who interviewed you this time? A TOC's revenue protection staff, PC Plod, or both?

Let's assume for a second that you're being subject to in effect, a private prosecution from a train company. If you were employed in their prosecution department, and somebody was presented to you who had already been prosecuted once - what would you do? Would you accept an out of Court settlement? The key to it is whether your existing conviction was recordable or not I'd say, or whether IRCAS already have a record of you.

I'm sure you're aware that the issue with this offence is that it's RoR Act territory for intent to avoid the fare, which upon conviction carries a criminal record.

Yes, I understand it. I am not trying to make this less serious. I shouldn't have done this.

It was the Railway Act (TFL) the first time. I only received a court summons that time, no previous contact from TFL. I haven't had the chance to say anything. I didn't sign that paper (don't know the name) that says I understood everything for the future.

I do understand that it is difficult to believe that I only did it twice and I got caught. Unfortunately, this is the truth.

I just would like to know if there is any slight chance that I can settle out of court. If I can't, that would be basically the end of my career in the educational sector. I never stole anything in my life, I do help people wherever I can and I am just upset that I was so stupid to do this. I could have just bought the full ticket at London Bridge from Brighton and get paid back by the company I work for.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How did you board at Brighton without a ticket as the gates are manned 24/7 ?

It was open and the gentleman at London Bridge confirmed it. He understood that I didn't buy the ticket because I couldn't, the gate was open and I wanted to buy my ticket on board. I am in trouble because I said Gatwick Airport as my origin of the journey.

 

[Ferret]

The fact that it would be your employer paying for the fare and so it wasn't even your own cold hard cash at stake suggests to an outsider that your first instinct is to avoid paying the correct fare. This is something that would not be lost on a Prosecutor either!

It's hard to say definitively whether a settlement would be accepted because ultimately it's in the hands of whoever is going to prosecute you. By all means try, but there can be no guarantees.

 

[moonface123]

The fact that it would be your employer paying for the fare and so it wasn't even your own cold hard cash at stake suggests to an outsider that your first instinct is to avoid paying the correct fare. This is something that would not be lost on a Prosecutor either!

It's hard to say definitively whether a settlement would be accepted because ultimately it's in the hands of whoever is going to prosecute you. By all means try, but there can be no guarantees.

Thank you! What would you suggest as a best course of action in order to give me the best possibility to settle out of court? Should I offer a sum when they write me?

At this point, I want to come clean about the TFL. I don't know if I have a criminal record from that. It was the railway act. I assume, I do have one. Should I tell them about it? I want to be honest. Should I send them my February tickets saying that I pay my fares (and TFL and this was the only time I ever did it?)

With TFL, I only received court summons. No previous TFL contact. I didn't have the chance to try to settle out of court. Would it make a difference?

 

[Swirlz]

You must also remember that if it happens on a third occasion, and you are convicted, you could be sent to prison for up to 3 months.

I am led to believe that prison sentences are usually chosen for fare evaders who are particularly persistent or those who demonstrate disregard to their previous convictions.

You will not be able to settle this out of court because it will be the Crown Prosecution Service running the show. When the British Transport Police prepare your file, there will no doubt be a record of your previous convictions. When it gets to court, after conviction, but before sentencing, the prosecutor will alert the court to your previous criminal convictions.

It is an open and shut Section 5(3) Regulation of Railways Act 1889 prosecution, probably identical to your previous conviction.

Forget about the original conviction. You can't change that now. Hopefully you have paid the fine. It will, however, make your sentence for the second occasion much harsher. Probably 200% of your weekly income, but at least £500.

 

[soil]

As far as I can tell you just have to wait for further communications, and until then all the posters gleefully rubbing their hands together can hold their breath.

 

[Ferret]

Swirlz, I'm not clear on whether this is being handled by the CPS or not. Often BTP are present with TOC staff when there are targeted operations in progress - basically the BTP are present as back up, and they might get involved with asking questions, but ultimately it's the TOC staff who interview under caution and submit the paperwork. I'm not 100% certain what's happened to the OP here, even though he mentions the Transport Police.

 

[moonface123]

Swirlz, I'm not clear on whether this is being handled by the CPS or not. Often BTP are present with TOC staff basically as a back up, and they might get involved with asking questions, but ultimately it's the TOC staff who interview under caution and submit the paperwork. I'm not 100% certain what's happened to the OP here, even though he mentions the Transport Police.

I am not sure who it was. I assume it was the TOC staff as I could clearly distinguish this person form the police. The police was standing there in black, he was wearing this green thingy. The police was there but standing around only. This man interviewed me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You must also remember that if it happens on a third occasion, and you are convicted, you could be sent to prison for up to 3 months.

I am led to believe that prison sentences are usually chosen for fare evaders who are particularly persistent or those who demonstrate disregard to their previous convictions.

You will not be able to settle this out of court because it will be the Crown Prosecution Service running the show. When the British Transport Police prepare your file, there will no doubt be a record of your previous convictions. When it gets to court, after conviction, but before sentencing, the prosecutor will alert the court to your previous criminal convictions.

It is an open and shut Section 5(3) Regulation of Railways Act 1889 prosecution, probably identical to your previous conviction.

Forget about the original conviction. You can't change that now. Hopefully you have paid the fine. It will, however, make your sentence for the second occasion much harsher. Probably 200% of your weekly income, but at least £500.

Thank you! I don't know who handles this. I need to wait and see who contacts me. For sure, it will not happen the 3rd time. I can tell you this now regardless from the outcome. I am very near right now to "jump through the window" and the only thing I'd like is to settle out of court and make sure it won't ever happen again. I just feel so stupid for doing this (for the nothing basically)...

 

[Ferret]

I am not sure who it was. I assume it was the TOC staff as I could clearly distinguish this person form the police. The police was standing there in black, he was wearing this green thingy. The police was there but standing around only. This man interviewed me.

Sounds to me like you've been interviewed by a member of TOC staff in the presence of PC Plod from the BTP, so it will be the train company who deal with the offence.

 

[moonface123]

About the first one: I actually used my girlfriend's oyster but I was able to find my own oyster, in front of the TFL staff. It was all okay with money on it. I used my own oyster to continu my journey there.

As a general rule, I consider myself an honest person. I've never had anything to do with the law apart from this. I worked very hard to get where I am with no help from anyone in any ways.

I fully understand where you are coming from and it doesn't look good. I made a big mistake. If people don't know me, they will think exactly the same as you do.

 

[maniacmartin]

My first thing was to go to the ticket office and buy the ticket..

It sounds to me that the "first thing" was to walk past the ticket office and ticket machines at Brighton and board the train.

About the first one: I actually used my girlfriend's oyster but I was able to find my own oyster, in front of the TFL staff. It was all okay with money on it. I used my own oyster to continu my journey there.

But had you not been challenged, presumably you would not have used PAYG on your Oyster and used your girlfriend's season ticket for the whole journey.

 

[jon0844]

Long story short, I always pay my train fares

Anyone spot the obvious error?

 

[bb21]

It was open and the gentleman at London Bridge confirmed it. He understood that I didn't buy the ticket because I couldn't, the gate was open and I wanted to buy my ticket on board. I am in trouble because I said Gatwick Airport as my origin of the journey.

Is there any reason why you didn't buy a ticket before boarding?

 

[island]

When you chose to join a train without a ticket at a staffed station, you committed a non-recordable offence under the railway byelaws. You do not have an entitlement to buy the ticket on-board (and if you were using First Capital Connect, it wouldn't have been possible as they don't have guards). When you subsequently chose to lie about your origin in an attempt to gain a reduced fare, you committed a more serious and recordable offence under the Regulation of Railways Act. (And picking a gated station as the place to say you joined wasn't even a very good choice.)

It is possible, but not certain, that this can be resolved without going to court. If you hear from Southern (or whichever train company it is) regarding the matter, you can apologise like crazy and offer to pay the fare avoided plus the administration costs they have incurred. This may or may not be accepted. If you hear from the police, all bets are off.

I feel compelled to add that you really need to pull yourself together as a previous conviction obviously hasn't got the message across. You have got to pay when you use the railway service!

 

[moonface123]

Mod Note: Threads merged to keep information together

Hello,
I received a letter from the train company (I said incorrect origin of my journey when I wanted to buy my ticket at London Bridge).

I am honestly sorry for what I've done. Really. I would like to send the apology letter below. Could anyone review it, please? I am not native speaker and I don't know how I need to phrase it. I don't want to sound arrogant in the email either as I am not.

Thank you everyone!

----------

Dear Sir or Madam:
I am writing you regarding the incident happened on the DATE, 2013. I couldn’t buy my train ticket at Brighton train station on the day. I wanted to buy the ticket on the train. The train was very busy and I couldn’t see the person who sells the tickets. When I got off the train at London Bridge, I immediately walked to the ticket sales office to purchase my ticket for the journey.

I made a very bad decision of saying Gatwick Airport as the origin of my journey instead of Brighton. I corrected myself there immediately and apologized. It was a spontaneous decision. I didn’t plan it.

I feel really ashamed and I deeply regret my action. I am so sorry. I am ashamed of my behavior and I can assure you that it will never happen in the future. I have never told untruthful information about my journey and I feel deepest regret for what I had done. I am sorry.

Please accept my deepest apology. I would like offer you to pay for the fare, any applicable fee, administrative fees and any other cost occurred for your company. I would also like to offer £1200 settlement if you would accept it.

Looking forward to hearing from you soon,
Yours faithfully,

 

[island]

£1,200 is probably an order of magnitude too high!

 

[moonface123]

£1,200 is probably an order of magnitude too high!

Hello,
Thank you for the reply! Do you mean that I should offer less? £1200 is a lot of money for me but I would like to offer something reasonable. I learnt my lesson and I am willing to pay the price and never do it again.

 

[Rich McLean]

Hello,
Thank you for the reply! Do you mean that I should offer less? £1200 is a lot of money for me but I would like to offer something reasonable. I learnt my lesson and I am willing to pay the price and never do it again.

Offer about £600. This is your second offence, but you really don't need to offer that much

 

[moonface123]

Offer about £600. This is your second offence, but you really don't need to offer that much

Thank you! However, would the amount I offer make any difference in terms of "acceptability chances"?

 

[Flamingo]

It might be worth asking them what would they accept.

 

[455driver]

As Flamingo has stated, ask if it would be possible to pay an amount towards their administration costs (leave the actual figure up to them), the fact it is your second offence probably means they will not be interested in an "out of court" settlement as you obviously didnt learn from the first time you were caught.

 

[moonface123]

As Flamingo has stated, ask if it would be possible to pay an amount towards their administration costs (leave the actual figure up to them), the fact it is your second offence probably means they will not be interested in an "out of court" settlement as you obviously didnt learn from the first time you were caught.

Hello and thank you!
I understand it. I don't want to be dishonest at all but I am not a serial offender. I am in the UK for 7 years and this was only the 2 cases when I had problem with the law. I am trying to be a useful part of the community and I seriously regret what I've done.

I know that the odds are stacked against me but would it hurt my case if I leave the amount in there? What do you think? What would you change in the apology letter?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I am also thinking to offer a sum of money for the charity of their choice as a compensation to the community. I do support charities whenever I can and I would like to show remorse.

 

[455driver]

Why couldnt you buy at Brighton, was there no ticket machine working?
If there was a working one I would leave that bit out as it would show intent to avoid payment, just because the gateline was open does not remove your responsibility to purchase before travelling.

I wouldnt put an actual amount in either (£1200 just makes you sound really desperate) but offer to pay towards their costs and leave them to possibly ask for an amount if you are lucky.

Keep it short (a long letter will just go in the bin) but apologise profusely (ie grovel) and hope they are in a good mood, but I can see this one going to court and if (and it really is a big if) they make an offer it will be expensive, the charity thing probably wouldnt be a good idea either although it is definitely original but the prosecution department probably wont be feeling very charitable.

We do get a lot of "it was the first time I didnt pay and I got caught" threads and it does wear a bit thin so I apologise for coming over rather harshly, but then it is the second time you have been caught.

 

[moonface123]

Why couldnt you buy at Brighton, was there no ticket machine working?
If there was a working one I would leave that bit out as it would show intent to avoid payment, just because the gateline was open does not remove your responsibility to purchase before travelling.

I wouldnt put an actual amount in either (£1200 just makes you sound really desperate) but offer to pay towards their costs and leave them to possibly ask for an amount if you are lucky.

Keep it short (a long letter will just go in the bin) but apologise profusely (ie grovel) and hope they are in a good mood, but I can see this one going to court and if (and it really is a big if) they make an offer it will be expensive, the charity thing probably wouldnt be a good idea either although it is definitely original but the prosecution department probably wont be feeling very charitable.

We do get a lot of "it was the first time I didnt pay and I got caught" threads and it does wear a bit thin so I apologise for coming over rather harshly, but then it is the second time you have been caught.

I understand that. It is just very difficult to express how sorry I am and to assure everyone that it will never happen again in writing (as everyone says that in situations like this). This is the reason I offered £1200, to show that I understand what I've done and I am willing to pay the price.

I also mentioned £200 for a charity of their choice in my previous thread. Is that too much and would they think it is "fake". I support charities but I don't want to come across fake.

 

[455driver]

What you have to remember is that the written word does not come across the same as the spoken word, where-as you may "say" things in a very sincere manner that might not "come across" when the same words are written down and it might actually read in entirely the wrong way, hence my advice to keep the letter as short as possible.

It is a difficult thing to have to write down and there is no reason my opinion is any more credible than yours so just try to work out what the person at the other end (who probably gets to read 100s of excuses a week) would like to read and what might influence their decision.

 

[moonface123]

I reworded my letter. I would like to ask what you think about it.

Dear Sir or Madam:
I would like to apologize for my action on the 28th of February. I wanted to buy my ticket on the train. The train was very busy and I couldn’t see the person who sells the tickets. When I got off the train at London Bridge, I immediately walked to the ticket sales office to purchase my ticket for the journey.

I made a very bad decision of saying Gatwick Airport as the origin of my journey instead of Brighton. I corrected myself there and apologized. It was a spontaneous decision. I didn’t plan it.

I feel really ashamed. I am so sorry. I would like to be a valuable part of the community and I have never told untruthful information about the origin of my journey. I feel the deepest regret for what I had done.

Please accept my sincere apology. I would like to offer to pay for all the cost occurred for your company. I would also like to ask you to accept my £1000 settlement for your company and £200 for the charity of your company’s choice as compensation to the community for my shameful action. Regardless the decision you make, I would like to sponsor this charity.

Looking forward to hearing from you soon,
Yours faithfully,

 

[Flamingo]

Again, I would just ask them what would they be willing to accept, and not name a sum.

 

[moonface123]

Again, I would just ask them what would they be willing to accept, and not name a sum.

I will do that. I will leave out the amounts.

Matter of interest: why does it make a big difference if I tell them the amount or not? I mean, why is that a big problem if I say the number? I am just asking...