fare evasion tfl

[h1..]

Hi, on the 18th of january i got caught by an inspector on the elizabeth line and once i tapped to leave the station the inspector asked to see my card, i covered the face and as he was reaching in too take the card, i put my hand down and walked off. as soon as i walked off he started shouting and out of nowhere two undercover police officers grabbed me and took me behind the disabled barriers and asked me why i was walking off, as a joke i said i was testing you and then they laughed it off, the inspector took my sisters 11-15 card and wrote down my details, thing is i’ve been using the oyster card and topping it up to go to work since the 13th of november and bcz i’m working minimum wage whilst in my gap year, my father has stage 3 blood cancer (main reason as to why i didn’t go university this year) and bcz of our financial issues seeing as my father was an inpatient these last few months and wasn’t able to work, i decided i’d use the oyster and pay half the price instead of the full price, luck ran out and i got the letter, i’ve made a draft but i have no idea what they’re going to do to me now. another reason why i’m doing this is because i need to pay to retake 2 of my a levels as i didn’t achieve my grades last year and also because i am studying medicine abroad and i’m scared this will have an effect later on.

please let me know on what i can do

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

TfL take fare evasion very seriously, and they rarely settle out of court when evasion has been going on for a considerable period of time, although there have been examples of them offering settlements or final warnings more recently I would not get your hopes up of getting out of a trip to the Magistrates Court.

You might want to make sure the following are included in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Don't give a sob story as they will have heard it all before. You might want to post a copy of your draft reply in this thread (with personal details redacted) and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

Incidentally, how old are you? If you qualify for a 16-25 or 26-30 railcard this can be added to a PAYG Oyster card which entitles you to a 35% discount on off peak fares, which might be useful for you int he future.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum.

Everything may turn out OK, but to face facts, it’s more likely than not that you are going to end up in court and will be convicted. This could be a problem if you are planning to practice medicine in the UK. However, looking at the GMC website (https://www.gmc-uk.org/registration...when-you-apply-guide/cautions-and-convictions) it seems that they don’t need to know about ‘protected’ convictions which a conviction for fare-dodging would be after a year. Against this, your hoped-for medical school may have its own rules - you will need to check with them.

So what should you do in response to the letter from TfL? If it’s like most letters we’ve seen it will ask on the back if you are guilty of an offence, without saying what offence they’re thinking of. That’s terrible wording, but from what you’ve told us, you know that you have done wrong in that you were using someone else’s (strike 1!) child ticket (strike 2!) repeatedly (strike 3!) to travel. I’d also comment that from what you say, it looks as if TfL were looking for you, which would mean that they know that you have been doing this for a couple of months.

If there’s to be any hope of TfL letting you go with Payment of the fares that you should have paid plus an admin fee, you need to co-operate. That means you need to reply to the letter, and you need to be honest. As you have fare-dodged a number of times, you should not deny doing that in that I think TfL would know that you were lying. I also think that they will know about you putting money on your sister’s card to use it So you shouldn’t deny that either.

Essentially, the really important thing will be to convince TfL that you won’t be doing it again. So you may want to buy an Oyster in your own name at the proper price so that you can prove that you’re not fare-dodging any more.

 

[some bloke]

it seems that they don’t need to know about ‘protected’ convictions which a conviction for fare-dodging would be after a year.

That isn't correct. The year is for a conviction to be "spent", but the concept of "spent" doesn't apply to doctors or medical students. (Incidentally the period before a conviction is spent depends on the sentence, rather than the offence.) "Protected" is different from "spent".

"A conviction is protected if all bullet points apply:

• it is not for a ‘listed offence’*
• you didn’t receive a custodial sentence
• more than 11 years have passed since the date of conviction (or more than five years and six months have passed if you were under the age of 18 when convicted)."

FtP question 1: Cautions and convictions - what to tell us when you apply - GMC
https://www.gmc-uk.org/registration...when-you-apply-guide/cautions-and-convictions

 

[Fawkes Cat]

That isn't correct. The year is for a conviction to be "spent", but the concept of "spent" doesn't apply to doctors or medical students. (Incidentally the period before a conviction is spent depends on the sentence, rather than the offence.) "Protected" is different from "spent".

"A conviction is protected if all bullet points apply:

• it is not for a ‘listed offence’*
• you didn’t receive a custodial sentence
• more than 11 years have passed since the date of conviction (or more than five years and six months have passed if you were under the age of 18 when convicted)."

FtP question 1: Cautions and convictions - what to tell us when you apply - GMC
https://www.gmc-uk.org/registration...when-you-apply-guide/cautions-and-convictions

This is what comes of scan-reading. Thanks for the correction: for the OP it further emphasises my opening remark:

Everything may turn out OK, but to face facts, it’s more likely than not that you are going to end up in court and will be convicted. This could be a problem if you are planning to practice medicine in the UK.

 

[AlterEgo]

What'll happen is you'll likely be prosecuted for the offences in the Magistrates' Court and convicted of whatever charge TfL levy at you. You can try to settle out of court like @Hadders has suggested but this has a low rate of success.

TfL have a political mandate to prosecute everyone who fiddles them - and by extension other pressed Londoners and taxpayers - out of fares. They take a predictably dim view of anyone abusing Freedom Passes or any heavily discounted Oyster. An aggravating factor in your case is that you tried to leave and were forcibly detained by the police. I do not expect TfL to settle out of court given this aspect of the offending.

I recommend, as @Hadders says, not to give a sob story. They have heard it all before, as have we. They are dispassionate and do not care about your personal circumstances. You should keep things factual and concise in your letter. If you go to court you must be prepared to substantiate the mitigating factors you claim in your opening post.

 

[some bloke]

@h1.. , I'm sorry to hear about your family situation and I wish you all the best with it.

If you post a draft on here people can comment on it. You could consider what evidence you have for the mitigating factors, which you could include in a response.

The letter doesn't specify whether the 10 days is from the date of the letter or from when you received it - you might want to ensure you send it by email as if it's the first of those.

i am studying medicine abroad and i’m scared this will have an effect later on.

It may be relevant soon - in the UK, the GMC requires medical students to inform their school when they are charged with a criminal offence. It would seem wise to check whether you agreed something including that when you started your course, and what the medical school and/or the regulator in the other country says about declaring charges/convictions. The information may be on their websites.

You could also check what the regulators say about practising medicine with convictions in any countries you are thinking of practising in.

Separately, you could try to find out what attitudes employers in those countries would have to convictions.

In the UK, sources of advice could include a student union, which might provide free legal advice and advice about careers; and the BMA. So you could try any equivalents of those in the other country, for the student union, and countries, for the BMA/doctors' trade union.

 

[h1..]

Welcome to the forum!

TfL take fare evasion very seriously, and they rarely settle out of court when evasion has been going on for a considerable period of time, although there have been examples of them offering settlements or final warnings more recently I would not get your hopes up of getting out of a trip to the Magistrates Court.

You might want to make sure the following are included in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Don't give a sob story as they will have heard it all before. You might want to post a copy of your draft reply in this thread (with personal details redacted) and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

Incidentally, how old are you? If you qualify for a 16-25 or 26-30 railcard this can be added to a PAYG Oyster card which entitles you to a 35% discount on off peak fares, which might be useful for you int he future.

i recently turned 19 but i’m not studying right now, i’ve taken a gap year and going to bulgaria in sep 2023

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2023 ==

@h1.. , I'm sorry to hear about your family situation and I wish you all the best with it.

If you post a draft on here people can comment on it. You could consider what evidence you have for the mitigating factors, which you could include in a response.

The letter doesn't specify whether the 10 days is from the date of the letter or from when you received it - you might want to ensure you send it by email as if it's the first of those.


It may be relevant soon - in the UK, the GMC requires medical students to inform their school when they are charged with a criminal offence. It would seem wise to check whether you agreed something including that when you started your course, and what the medical school and/or the regulator in the other country says about declaring charges/convictions. The information may be on their websites.

You could also check what the regulators say about practising medicine with convictions in any countries you are thinking of practising in.

Separately, you could try to find out what attitudes employers in those countries would have to convictions.

In the UK, sources of advice could include a student union, which might provide free legal advice and advice about careers; and the BMA. So you could try any equivalents of those in the other country, for the student union, and countries, for the BMA/doctors' trade union.

i’m not sure if it’s true but i read some place else as well that when the gmc does a dbs check they’ll see what type of crime you have committed and if it doesn’t fall under the category of harming people or serious fraud then something such as fare evasion wouldn’t stop me from returning from bulgaria 6 years later and become a doctor in the uk. i’m not sure if this is true or not but hopefully it is

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2023 ==

Welcome to the forum.

Everything may turn out OK, but to face facts, it’s more likely than not that you are going to end up in court and will be convicted. This could be a problem if you are planning to practice medicine in the UK. However, looking at the GMC website (https://www.gmc-uk.org/registration...when-you-apply-guide/cautions-and-convictions) it seems that they don’t need to know about ‘protected’ convictions which a conviction for fare-dodging would be after a year. Against this, your hoped-for medical school may have its own rules - you will need to check with them.

So what should you do in response to the letter from TfL? If it’s like most letters we’ve seen it will ask on the back if you are guilty of an offence, without saying what offence they’re thinking of. That’s terrible wording, but from what you’ve told us, you know that you have done wrong in that you were using someone else’s (strike 1!) child ticket (strike 2!) repeatedly (strike 3!) to travel. I’d also comment that from what you say, it looks as if TfL were looking for you, which would mean that they know that you have been doing this for a couple of months.

If there’s to be any hope of TfL letting you go with Payment of the fares that you should have paid plus an admin fee, you need to co-operate. That means you need to reply to the letter, and you need to be honest. As you have fare-dodged a number of times, you should not deny doing that in that I think TfL would know that you were lying. I also think that they will know about you putting money on your sister’s card to use it So you shouldn’t deny that either.

Essentially, the really important thing will be to convince TfL that you won’t be doing it again. So you may want to buy an Oyster in your own name at the proper price so that you can prove that you’re not fare-dodging any more.

yes i wouldn’t mind paying the fares and the admin fees so long as i don’t receive a record, also i’ve heard that if i do get taken to court it depends on how lenient the judge is and hopefully once they understand what situation i am in they can give what ever fine they want.

 

[some bloke]

i’m not sure if it’s true but i read some place else as well that when the gmc does a dbs check they’ll see what type of crime you have committed and if it doesn’t fall under the category of harming people or serious fraud then something such as fare evasion wouldn’t stop me from returning from bulgaria 6 years later and become a doctor in the uk. i’m not sure if this is true or not but hopefully it is

DBS checks are of less relevance for medicine because you are required to disclose all convictions (subject to anything about protected convictions).

Whether the offence has an effect on your career is a different matter. I suggest contacting the BMA, as well as organisations abroad as above.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2023 ==

yes i wouldn’t mind paying the fares and the admin fees so long as i don’t receive a record, also i’ve heard that if i do get taken to court it depends on how lenient the judge is and hopefully once they understand what situation i am in they can give what ever fine they want.

They can't say you're innocent if you're not.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2023 ==

Please see paragraphs 76, 77 and 80 of this guidance:

Achieving good medical practice: guidance for medical students

This guidance outlines the standards expected of you – both inside and outside medical school – and shows how the principles and values of Good medical practice apply to you as a student.

www.gmc-uk.org

Paragraph 80 reads,

"If you have any questions about what you should declare to the GMC or
to your medical school, you can get advice from your medical school, a
medical defence organisation or the British Medical Association (BMA)."

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2023 ==

Please also read carefully the text at the link given above:

https://www.gmc-uk.org/registration-and-licensing/join-the-register/what-to-tell-us-when-you-apply-guide/cautions-and-convictions

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2023 ==

Clearly, fare evasion doesn't necessarily mean a doctor is going to be bad at their job. But you need to be very clear about the requirements of your medical school in Bulgaria, and any other organisation which is relevant, and that among other considerations you may need to explain how you have learned from this experience so that it is not a bad sign, or less of a bad sign, for a regulator or employers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2023 ==

It would seem useful to find out what processes must happen, and may happen, after a medical student, prospective registrant to the GMC or other regulator, or doctor discloses a conviction to a medical school, regulator or employer.

Of course convictions can also be relevant to immigration matters. At least in relation to immigration to the UK, only officially-recognised advisers are legally allowed to give advice. Perhaps you would need to declare a conviction when going to Bulgaria.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2023 ==

This may seem overwhelming but it may turn out to be good experience for the stresses of being a doctor.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2023 ==

You could contact these organisations by email or phone - please be aware that they are likely to prefer that you research the issues on their websites beforehand:

Unlock

For people with criminal records.

unlock.org.uk

Home

Nacro believes that everyone deserves a good education, a safe and secure place to live, a chance to be heard, and the chance to start again.

www.nacro.org.uk

 

[Vero]

Hi, on the 18th of january i got caught by an inspector on the elizabeth line and once i tapped to leave the station the inspector asked to see my card, i covered the face and as he was reaching in too take the card, i put my hand down and walked off. as soon as i walked off he started shouting and out of nowhere two undercover police officers grabbed me and took me behind the disabled barriers and asked me why i was walking off, as a joke i said i was testing you and then they laughed it off, the inspector took my sisters 11-15 card and wrote down my details, thing is i’ve been using the oyster card and topping it up to go to work since the 13th of november and bcz i’m working minimum wage whilst in my gap year, my father has stage 3 blood cancer (main reason as to why i didn’t go university this year) and bcz of our financial issues seeing as my father was an inpatient these last few months and wasn’t able to work, i decided i’d use the oyster and pay half the price instead of the full price, luck ran out and i got the letter, i’ve made a draft but i have no idea what they’re going to do to me now. another reason why i’m doing this is because i need to pay to retake 2 of my a levels as i didn’t achieve my grades last year and also because i am studying medicine abroad and i’m scared this will have an effect later on.

please let me know on what i can do

Hi I literally went through the same thing TWICE.

I was found using a family member's disability freedom pass TWICE (Although the second time was accidentally but it's a long story to explain).
I was found guilty under Byelaw 17(1) of the Transport for London Railway Byelaws. I pleaded guilty on both incidents and received a fine to pay between £250 - £400.
TFL does say that you will receive a criminal record if you are found guilty HOWEVER this will not appear under a DBS CHECK. Bylaw offences are civil matters and do not end up on the police database which would actually give you a criminal record.
After I was found guilty and paid the fines I and also my employers did a background check on me and NO CRIMINAL RECORD appeared. My employment was not affected and I continued life normally.

I hope this gives you some peace.

 

[matt_world2004]

Some of the prosecutions aren't done by tfl on the Elizabeth line but MTR crossrail who may be more willing to settle out of court

 

[h1..]

Some of the prosecutions aren't done by tfl on the Elizabeth line but MTR crossrail who may be more willing to settle out of court

i hope they do an out of court settlement, im in bulgaria and i’ve been given a place and hopefully i don’t get a criminal record as i’m scared it’ll impact my visa.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2023 ==

Hi I literally went through the same thing TWICE.

I was found using a family member's disability freedom pass TWICE (Although the second time was accidentally but it's a long story to explain).
I was found guilty under Byelaw 17(1) of the Transport for London Railway Byelaws. I pleaded guilty on both incidents and received a fine to pay between £250 - £400.
TFL does say that you will receive a criminal record if you are found guilty HOWEVER this will not appear under a DBS CHECK. Bylaw offences are civil matters and do not end up on the police database which would actually give you a criminal record.
After I was found guilty and paid the fines I and also my employers did a background check on me and NO CRIMINAL RECORD appeared. My employment was not affected and I continued life normally.

I hope this gives you some peace.

thank god.

 

[AlastairFraser]

i hope they do an out of court settlement, im in bulgaria and i’ve been given a place and hopefully i don’t get a criminal record as i’m scared it’ll impact my visa.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Feb 2023 ==


thank god.

Contact the relevant embassies in advance to ask about this if you get convicted.

As for the GMC, I'm also subject to their regs; they tend to be lenient in terms of Fitness to Practise for 1 rail fare conviction (repeated conviction could be seen as untrustworthiness by a FTP commitee) - as long as you disclose the conviction at all opportunities.

As for your med school, if you're convicted, contact, ask about policy then consider your option (likely best to disclose.)
Worst I would expect is a professionalism lapse, if that.

Best advice is to keep your head up, grow from this experience and don't repeat it. Good luck with your future studies and focus on them!

 

[StaceyD]

Hi I literally went through the same thing TWICE.

I was found using a family member's disability freedom pass TWICE (Although the second time was accidentally but it's a long story to explain).
I was found guilty under Byelaw 17(1) of the Transport for London Railway Byelaws. I pleaded guilty on both incidents and received a fine to pay between £250 - £400.
TFL does say that you will receive a criminal record if you are found guilty HOWEVER this will not appear under a DBS CHECK. Bylaw offences are civil matters and do not end up on the police database which would actually give you a criminal record.
After I was found guilty and paid the fines I and also my employers did a background check on me and NO CRIMINAL RECORD appeared. My employment was not affected and I continued life normally.

I hope this gives you some peace.

Hi Vero,

Sorry, just trying to understand, as i feel confused.
I thought that conviction under Byelaw 17 is an automatic sentence ( 12 months on DBS check ) and 11yrs on Enchanted DBS?
That is the advice on all TFL solicitor websites.
To summarise, does it mean that once found guilty by the court and the penalty is paid, one does not have a criminal record? If asked at a job application what should be the answer to have you been convicted?

Thank you.

 

[Hadders]

Hi Vero,

Sorry, just trying to understand, as i feel confused.
I thought that conviction under Byelaw 17 is an automatic sentence ( 12 months on DBS check ) and 11yrs on Enchanted DBS?
That is the advice on all TFL solicitor websites.
To summarise, does it mean that once found guilty by the court and the penalty is paid, one does not have a criminal record? If asked at a job application what should be the answer to have you been convicted?

Thank you.

Please start a new thread if you require your own advice.

Railway Bylaws are prosecuted in the Magistrates Court and result in a criminal conviction. This isn't normally recorded on the Police National Computer and under normal circumstances won't result in it appearing on a standard DSB check.

 

[pedr]

It is wrong to say that "Bylaw offences are civil matters". These bylaws create criminal offences. For advice on the medium- and long-term consequences of convictions under the bylaws I suggest contacting Unlock: https://unlock.org.uk/ - while non-recordable offences almost never appear in police records, that does not mean that they aren't convictions and the 'correct' answers to give when asked about criminal convictions can depend on the specific question and on who is asking in some very complex ways, particularly as the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act does not apply in every situation.