Fare evasion Manchester Picadilly

[Grad1774]

Hi all,

I, too, in a moment of utter stupidity tried to cheat the system. All help welcome.

I travelled from small station A to Manchester Piccadilly. This station has no ticket office or machine. En route to Manchester there was no sign of a inspector, not even one passing through to open doors. Journey is roughly 40 mins in length so surprised he/she didn't come past this three carriage train (I have since read that I should have sought him/her). **As an aside, when I am in the area, I usually get the train to Manchester from a larger town, where I always use the office/ machines to buy a ticket)**.

In what can only be described as momentary lapse in good judgement, I thought whilst queueing to buy a ticket from them that I'd say I got on at Stockport (naturally, choosing the closest and therefore most suspicious station). Stockport obviously has ticket barriers so this was impossible. I was pulled aside by a man who took my details. I ended up telling him that I'd just hopped off at Stockport from my original station. Then, admitting my terrible mistake I told him I'd pay from my TRUE station (station A) to avoid having details taken but, quite rightly, he didn't let me get away with it. He told me to await a letter that "will likely tell me to pay the difference".

I realise I have committed the more serious of the two railway offences and await the letter from Northern.

My reason for writing is for any advice on how to settle this out of court. It was incredibly out of character. I have just graduated this summer from a 5-year Masters degree and any convictions would see my employability diminish. I've used Northern, Transpennine and Scotrail for 5 years travelling to and from university and have never dreamt of not buying the correct ticket. I always keep my railcard up-to-date etc. In short, until now, I would consider myself to be an exemplary rail user.

I have read around many of the posts here and according to some of you, Northern give cautions and fines to those who commit for the first time, although they don't have to and can head straight to prosecution if they wish. What should I do to ensure the best chance a caution/ out of court settlement?

Would it be worth phoning their Revenues department without disclosing my name and ask what might likely happen?

Thanks for any help.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Have phoned Northern's prosecution department and told the full story.

I have been told that as it is my first offence, it's their usual procedure to charge £80 + difference from short-faring.

Won't have the full outcome for a while, although I promise to post what happens for those who find themselves in the same situation in the future.

Any helpful comments welcome in the meantime.

Many thanks.

 

[trentside]

It sounds likely, in that case, that Northern will proceed down the settlement road - in which case promptly paying the £80 and the fare owed will close the matter and not have any effect on future employment opportunities. Don't panic if you don't hear anything for a few weeks, as processing these things can take time.

It sounds like you appreciate the seriousness of the matter, and as an intelligent person I'm sure you won't be making the same mistake again.

 

[Grad1774]

Many thanks, Trentside.

Would it be worth phoning Prosecutions back and giving them my specific details in time for the documentation to come through to them from Piccadilly? In that way we might be able deal with it over the phone? Or, alternatively, should I just wait for the letter in the post?

 

[Merseysider]

Northern like to give people a second chance most of the time.

If they do offer to settle (by you paying them ~£80) it isn't an official caution and won't be on your record. There are though generally three criteria for being offered a settlement/Fixed Penalty Notice from NT.

• you must admit the offence and accept it was wrong,
• it must (normally) be your first offence,
• there are no signs of more serious, organised, offences such as ticket forgery or "doughnutting" with season tickets

There is of course the chance you will be taken to court for a violation of the Regulation of Railways Act, as you are aware, and that would be more serious.

You've come across as having quite a good attitude, so I would suggest you maintain that in your correspondence with Northern; they will send you a letter in due course (typically between 1-6 weeks after the offence) and either straight up offer the settlement in that letter, or ask for a written statement so they can better decide how to proceed.

It goes without saying that any further misdemeanour may jeopardise your chances of keeping the matter away from the magistrates.

 

[Grad1774]

Would someone be so kind as to advise me on a suitable length of letter/text to Northern when I receive correspondence from them in the post? How much space am I likely to have, in other words.

I've drafted a letter whilst everything is fresh in my mind and it's currently just under 400 words.

Is this too long?

Many thanks

 

[steve a]

In what can only be described as momentary lapse in good judgement, I thought whilst queueing to buy a ticket from them that I'd say I got on at Stockport (naturally, choosing the closest and therefore most suspicious station). Stockport obviously has ticket barriers so this was impossible. I was pulled aside by a man who took my details. I ended up telling him that I'd just hopped off at Stockport from my original station. Then, admitting my terrible mistake I told him I'd pay from my TRUE station (station A) to avoid having details taken but, quite rightly, he didn't let me get away with it. He told me to await a letter that "will likely tell me to pay the difference".

Stockport doesn't have barriers (yet), but they do have people checking tickets at platforms 3/4 (the ones for Manchester trains). They also used to have ticket checks at Piccadilly between platforms 13/14 and the rest of the station so it looks like claiming to have caught a train from Stockport is a common dodge.

 

[Grad1774]

Hi all,

It's just occurred to me that I have just assumed that the revenues block was run by Northern. I alighted a Northern train and the revenue block was checking tickets of those coming off this train.

Is there any chance it wouldn't be Northern with whom I should keep in contact?

Since the incident on Friday last week, I've spoken briefly on the phone with people at prosecutions@ital-uk.com

Many thanks

 

[ian959]

Would someone be so kind as to advise me on a suitable length of letter/text to Northern when I receive correspondence from them in the post? How much space am I likely to have, in other words.

I've drafted a letter whilst everything is fresh in my mind and it's currently just under 400 words.

Is this too long?

Many thanks

Length is irrelevant, keeping it simple and to the point is the important thing. Waffle is not going to help at all...

 

[trentside]

Length is irrelevant, keeping it simple and to the point is the important thing. Waffle is not going to help at all...

I agree, keep it concise and don't attempt to justify your actions. Say you were wrong, apologise and assure them it won't happen again. I wouldn't be writing to them at this stage, let them contact you as it's almost certainly going to result in an £80 charge, plus fare owing. I know it's preferable to have the matter closed but sadly revenue protection departments can't always be hurried along due to the volume of cases they deal with.

As for whether it's Northern you're dealing with, it's almost certainly them. The people you dealt with at the revenue block were most likely their STM Security contractors who are authorized to act on their behalf across their network, but mainly in the North West and Yorkshire.

 

[Grad1774]

Thanks everyone for the comments.

In that case I suppose you won't be hearing from me for a few weeks.

As I said, I'll be sure to post the outcome.

All the best.

 

[Grad1774]

Hello again,

Today I received the letter I was expecting, which is asking for my version of events.

I have drafted a letter. Would someone experienced with these matters feel able to read it for me?

Many thanks,

Grad1774

 

[Clip]

feel free to post it up - there was a post a while back that could be used as a template but I cant find it - and im sure people will read and assist you with your reply.

 

[323235]

Just to point out from reading your post , you are not obliged to seek out the guard on the train, this is a myth, if no facilities are available HOWEVER you are legally obliged to pay at your destination if facilities are available.

You boarded at an unstaffed station and until you said Stockport as your origin you had not committed any offence if no facilities (ticket office or cash and card ticket machine) were available before joining . At this point you demonstrated intent to avoid paying the correct fare and also chose a station where it is an offence to board without paying first.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree with 323235. It might help when composing your statement of facts to know that the practice of wrongly stating the name of a station of origin which is closer to the destination than the correctly named station is a very frequent occurrence. Thousands of passengers have been doing this regularly for over a hundred years. Data from ticket sales compared with head-counts on board highlights the areas where it is prevalent. Revenue Protection staff are deployed specifically to target the practice. There are several legal precedents* which firmly place such passengers in the class of 'fare evaders'. Passengers doing this are regularly prosecuted in the Magistrates Courts.

We could guess, reasonably, that most passengers 'caught' doing this for the first time, will claim that this was also their first time of 'mistaking' the name of their station of origin.

I pass no comment on your own incident, but simply want to be sure that you are aware of this background. If you want to state "I thought whilst queueing to buy a ticket from them that I'd say I got on at Stockport" was for any reason than fare evasion then the investigating officer will surely have heard it all before. Similarly, if you want to give the impression that you have never even considered doing this before, they will have heard that too. Many times.

As 323235 says, until you lied about the station name, you had not committed any offence. Being subject to 'momentary lapses of reason' is no more an excuse or mitigating circumstance in fare evasion than it is in any other crime.

. . . . I've drafted a letter whilst everything is fresh in my mind and it's currently just under 400 words.

Is this too long?

Well of course it is. Far too long. Surely most of that is irrelevant to the investigating officer's duty and responsibility? If I was reading it, I'd go into 'speed reading' mode in the hope that there might be a fact which is relevant to my enquiry. And might miss it (if there was one in the first place).
Just get straight to the point.

I write all this, not as criticism, but in the hope that it might help in composing your reply.

*For established authorities, see:
Bremme v Dubery (1964)
Covington v Wright (1963)
Murphy v Verati (1967)

 

[Grad1774]

Many thanks to all for the comments and time, especially to DaveNewcastle for the very thorough post.

If you want to state "I thought whilst queueing to buy a ticket from them that I'd say I got on at Stockport" was for any reason than fare evasion then the investigating officer will surely have heard it all before. Similarly, if you want to give the impression that you have never even considered doing this before, they will have heard that too. Many times.

I'd just like to clarify to all that I'm not intending to justify any of my actions in this letter. I didn't board the train intent on evading a fare, it was a just a split second decision I made before opening my mouth on the platform at Manchester Piccadilly - a decision I must now live with.

As such, my letter will give Northern all they need to prosecute me.

My only hope is that they will believe me when I say that I would (until now) consider myself to be an exemplary rail user, and perhaps feel able to give me a second chance. I can also only hope that they view this case with compassion as at 23yo graduate I am at a critical job-hunting stage in my life where the effects of prosecution would be incredibly severe.

In my mind, this is all I can do.

If anyone experienced with Northern prosecutions has any further ideas as to how I can keep this matter away from courts, please do let me know.

Best,

Grad1774

 

[island]

Investigations like this by Northern Rail tend to end in the passenger being offered a "fixed penalty notice" for £80 plus the fare avoided assuming no previous history.

 

[Grad1774]

I realise this is probably too lengthy, but I do think it all needs to be there. Do let me know what could be cut out.

Grad1774


Ref: XXXXXXX

Dear Sir/ Madam,

I am writing to you today not to justify my actions but in the hope that you might feel able to excuse a rail ticketing offence I made on 16/07/15. I was travelling on the XX:XX service from XXXXXX to Manchester Piccadilly.

With no ticket machine or office at XXXXXX, I needed to buy my ticket on the train, however there was no sign of any ticket officer passing through on this 35-minute journey. As such, on arrival at Manchester Piccadilly I waited in line to buy a ticket from the Revenue Officers by the gate.

In what can only be described as a momentary lapse in honesty good judgement, I bought a ticket from these attendants from Stockport instead of XXXXXX, therefore not buying the correct ticket for my travel. Had I been travelling from Stockport, the ticket barriers would not have allowed me through without a ticket and the station attendant quite rightly pointed this out and took my details as a result.*

As such, I wish to confirm that I underpaid for my travel (underpaying by £X.XX). I am now also aware of the seriousness of this offence and after having read further information online I see that such a violation (Regulation of Railways Act 1889) can, at your discretion, end in Court action.

At 23, I have just graduated from a 5 year degree at university and am on the verge of entering the job market. Therefore I ask that you please accept my sincerest apologies for this offence and let me repay what is owed in addition to any administration fees you may have incurred instead of taking this offence further.

I can say with confidence that I did not board the train intent on underpaying, and over the last 5 years travelling to and from university in Scotland, I have used Northern, Transpennine and Scotrail, never dreaming of underpaying; I always travel with my valid 16-25 Railcard. In short, until now, I would consider myself to be an exemplary rail user.

I have always been taught to live by the notion of "honesty pays in the long run". I have let myself down and do hope that in light of what’s written above, my admission of wrongdoing, along with my sincerest apologies you might feel able to settle this offence by way of a Fixed Penalty Notice.

Please do let me know how we can proceed.

Yours sincerely,

 

[Camden]

Given you say you were taught to live honestly, and given you say you have travelled extensively on the rail network and never dreamt of underpaying, then it begs the question then why did you on this occasion?

So I don't think it's what I would call a full and open explanation and apology, but more an acceptance of the facts of the matter along with a plea for clemency regarding your employment (understandable) and a plea for your overall honesty to be taken at face value (not understandable to me when you've not also explained why this situation was so different from all the others. I feel a "momentary lapse in honesty good judgement" doesn't really explain it, as it doesn't tally with the concept of never previously dreaming of doing it. If you've never dreamt of doing it, then why did it occur to you then?).

If that letter came to me, the impression I would take away (from a human rather than legal perspective) is that actually while you say you're honest and haven't done this before your "momentary lapse in honesty good judgement" doesn't seem to sit right with both this claim and that you also say you use the railways a lot (which might make me wonder if you might have done this a lot, rather than never).

I'm sure someone will give you TOC specific advice, but I'd suggest you either go one way or another. Either explain yourself fully and avoid insincere sounding, self-excusing politician speak (terms like "In what can only be described as a momentary lapse in honesty good judgement..." and "I can say with confidence that I did not..."), or if you can't fully explain yourself cut any rambling self-testaments as to your honesty and rely on sincere apology.

Also, a point for someone else to answer: Should she ask for an FPN? Wouldn't it be more fare + admin + "a penalty", as I believe FPNs are designed to include admin costs within? An FPN is £80 with Northern, and I doubt they would be happy with that?

 

[najaB]

I realise this is probably too lengthy, but I do think it all needs to be there. Do let me know what could be cut out.

Yes, it is too lengthy, there's a lot of filler and fluff that could be taken out. To put it plainly, TOCs don't really care about the impact a prosecution has on you, they care about the impact that fare evasion has on them. You perhaps need to think about that a bit more.

Also, it's passed the point where a penalty notice would apply so you would be looking to pay the fare plus a contribution to their costs.

 

[Llanigraham]

Ref: XXXXXXX

Dear Sir/ Madam,

I am writing to you today not to justify my actions but in the hope that you might feel able to excuse a rail ticketing offence I made on 16/07/15. I was travelling on the XX:XX service from XXXXXX to Manchester Piccadilly.

With no ticket machine or office at XXXXXX, I needed to buy my ticket on the train, however there was no sign of any ticket officer passing through on this 35-minute journey. As such, on arrival at Manchester Piccadilly I waited in line to buy a ticket from the Revenue Officers by the gate.

In what can only be described as a LACK OF judgement, I bought a ticket from these attendants from Stockport instead of XXXXXX, therefore not buying the correct ticket for my travel. Had I been travelling from Stockport, the ticket barriers would not have allowed me through without a ticket and the station attendant quite rightly pointed this out and took my details as a result.*

As such, I wish to confirm that I underpaid for my travel (underpaying by £X.XX). I am now also aware of the seriousness of this offence and after having read further information online I see that such a violation (Regulation of Railways Act 1889) can, at your discretion, end in Court action.

Therefore I ask that you please accept my sincerest apologies for this offence and let me repay what is owed in addition to any administration fees you may have incurred instead of taking this offence further.

Please do let me know how we can proceed.

Yours sincerely,

That gets rid of all the irrelevant stuff!

 

[Grad1774]

A good point well made Camden.

If you've never dreamt of doing it, then why did it occur to you then?)

My travel over the last 5 years has never been as a commuter. I probably use the trains under 10 times a year. Anytime I do travel to and from university or elsewhere, I book my tickets online as they are longer journeys.

In answer to your question, all I can say is that with the absence of a ticket machine at the origin station, as well as no ticket inspector on board checking/selling tickets, I was presented with the opportunity to short fare. My sense of judgement was tested and I failed to act honestly. Perhaps that's a better way of putting it with Northern?

 

[Greenback]

I don't think it would be wise to try and blame the lack of ticket buying facilities for your very poor error of judgement in deliberately trying to pay a lower fare than you should have.

I would suggest that you admit you made a big mistake, and that you have learned a lesson and it will never happen again. I would remove the fifth and sixth paragraphs. They won't help you, in fact they could hinder you, as the decision maker will be very used to such pleas and may be irritated by them.

Replace those paragraphs with something like 'I am fully prepared to cover the costs of the tickets, plus the administrative costs you have incurred in dealing with my stupidity, in order to avoid court.'

To me, the mention of a Fixed Penalty Notice might indicate that you have knowledge of the system from previous dealings of a similar nature.

 

[70014IronDuke]

"In what can only be described as a momentary lapse in honesty good judgement, ... "


[/I]

I wonder if your degree is in politics, or marketing or PR?

I certainly hope it is not in logic, or English, Grad1774 or we might as well close down the faculty where you studied, mightn't we?

I think you are very lucky to have found some wise counsel in this thread.

 

[Grad1774]

Thanks Greenback, and to all those who have made helpful comments. Have taken it all on board and will edit the letter accordingly.

I'll post the outcome.

 

[crehld]

Other posters are quite correct in saying that official communication should be concise, to the point and avoid irrelevant waffle. Therefore I offer the following reworking of your initial draft, which is limited to the facts of the situation, your apology and how you would like to remedy your actions. Hopefully this is of some help (perhaps other posters could improve it further?).


Ref: XXXXXXX

Dear Sir or Madam,

I am writing to you regarding a journey I made on 16 July 2015, on the XX:XX service from XXXXXX to Manchester Piccadilly.

I was unable to purchase a ticket on the train, so upon arrival at Manchester Piccadilly I waited in line to buy a ticket from the staff by the gate. When being served I claimed that I had travelled from Stockport rather than XXXXXXX. The member of staff did not believe me and took my details.

I realise that saying I had travelled from Stockport rather than XXXXXX was wrong and a lack of judgement on my part. I therefore offer my sincere apologies for attempting to avoid paying the appropriate fare for my journey and not being truthful with your staff. I would also like to give my reassurances that I now appreciate the seriousness of my actions. I have learnt my lesson and will not attempt to behave this way in the future.

I am mindful that my actions have cost you financially. If possible, I would like remedy the situation and avoid it being escalated further by offering payment of the appropriate fare and to cover any additional administrative costs you have incurred as a result of my inappropriate actions.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,

XXXXXX

 

[Panda]

Still too much information that's not relevant or important. Don't write an entire sentence to say what you are not saying, don't need to point out exactly how long your train journey was, don't think you need to point out what would have or could have happened at Stockport (it's irrelevant whether or not you would have been able to board without a ticket at Stockport since you never travelled from there).

EDIT: crehld did a really good job of taking out all of the irrelevant and unnecessary fluff.

 

[Greenback]

Thanks Greenback, and to all those who have made helpful comments. Have taken it all on board and will edit the letter accordingly.

I'll post the outcome.

I'm glad you;re listening to feedback, which is meant to be constructive rather than critical!

Don't forget that your objective is solely to convince Northern of your regret and remorse over your actions, and to compensate them sufficiently enough that court action is not an appealing option for them.

Hopefully, your remorse is genuine, as if you come to their notice again, it will be much harder to convince them to settle out of court than on a first offence.

 

[najaB]

A suggestion, try changing:

I was unable to purchase a ticket on the train, so upon arrival at Manchester Piccadilly I waited in line to buy a ticket from the staff by the gate.

to

I wasn't able to purchase a ticket before arriving at Manchester Piccadilly, so I went to purchase one from the staff by the gate.

Just so that it doesn't sound like the OP is blaming the guard on the train in any way.

 

[Grad1774]

Is it not important to say there is no ticket machine/ office at my origin station, or will they be familiar with the facilities there?

 

[bb21]

Is it not important to say there is no ticket machine/ office at my origin station, or will they be familiar with the facilities there?

You can include it if you so wish, but imo this is now irrelevant given the way things have panned out.