Fare evasion help!!!!!

[Helloxdakaja]

So I got the train from Manchester Victoria to oxford road, ended up getting the WRONG train and stopped at Warrington. Because I got the wrong train I was kind of lost and decided to get a train and go back to Manchester Victoria from Warrington .

I never got a ticket cquse I got the wrong train and didn’t think I needed to ? Anyways so on the way back to Manchester Victoria I accidentally stopped at mcr Piccadilly instead thinking its Victoria!!

just before going to the barriers I bought a ticket from mcr Victoria to oxford road , (the wrong one) !!!! And the ticket inspector saw me do that . And thought I was trying to dodgy a fare for a longer journey when I really wasn’t .
Anyways he was very rude to me and as a result I was rude bavk and was ‘abusive’ apparently , he took my details didn’t even ask where I’d come from . And told me I’m going to court he was so awful. And I’ve just got a letter asking to explain what happend from nothern rail.
I rang up the prosecution and they said it will probably go to court as I was being abusive. But I didn’t actually dodge a fare though did I ???

ive contacted a lawyer and they said I need to wait for a response. Then if they decide to prosecute I could pay £750 to the lawyers to write a letter of representations for me that could keep it out of court.
Has anyone been through this before?? What letter comes after I explain my side of the story? Will it be a court summon? Or a hearing? What’s the difference and do I need to be present

 

[Sprinter107]

Was there not a staffed ticket office at Manchester Victoria that you couldve bought a ticket to Oxford Road from ? As for getting on the wrong train, many people do that, so you shouldn't be penalised for that.

 

[Kilopylae]

Can I clarify what happened?

[1] You started your journey at Manchester Victoria, intending to travel to Manchester Oxford Road.

[2.1] Without purchasing a ticket,
[2.2] you boarded a train from Victoria that you thought was going to Oxford Road.

[3] You realised you had boarded the wrong train and left it at Warrington, and then boarded a train from Warrington back to Manchester.

[4] You left the train back from Warrington at Manchester Picadilly, thinking you were at Victoria.

[5] Still thinking you were at Victoria, you went to purchase a ticket to travel to Oxford Road.

[6] You were stopped by a revenue protection officer who accused you of trying to evade the full fare from Picadilly to Oxford Road by buying a ticket from Victoria, things got confrontational, and he took your details.

Is that correct?

 

[Helloxdakaja]

All of it correct except where you said I didn’t purchase a ticket from Manchester Victoria to oxford road. Yes I did purchase a ticket . I even have proof of it. Then I boarded the wrong train and ended up in Warrington
Sorry if I wasn’t clear before

 

[Kilopylae]

You bought one ticket from Victoria to Oxford Road at the start of your journey, and then you bought a second ticket from Victoria to Oxford Road when you were at Picadilly?

 

[Helloxdakaja]

When I got to Piccadilly I bought a ticket mcr oxford road to picadilly , I don’t know why I got that it doesn’t make sense
That’s why it looks like I was trying to get through for a cheaper journey I just bought another ticket which was wrong
I guess I was trying to just show I’ll buy another ticket so I don’t get in trouble for getting the wrong train
Instead should have just explained the situation

 

[Haywain]

All of it correct except where you said I didn’t purchase a ticket from Manchester Victoria to oxford road. Yes I did purchase a ticket . I even have proof of it. Then I boarded the wrong train and ended up in Warrington
Sorry if I wasn’t clear before

Why did you not leave the train from Warrington when it called at Oxford Road (I believe all trains call there)? If you had done so you would not have experienced any problems.

 

[Helloxdakaja]

I only realised I was on the wrong train when I arrived at Warrington. And yes I should have done that but I ended up in Piccadilly !
and also yes I bought another ticket from Manchsster Victoria to oxford road . When I got to Piccadilly barriers so I bought 2 more tickets
For no reason.
wbat do you think will happen now?

 

[Kilopylae]

Why did you not leave the train from Warrington when it called at Oxford Road (I believe all trains call there)?

There are Northern trains from Leeds to Chester that go from Victoria to Warrington Bank Quay calling at Newton-le-Willows and Earleston but not Oxford Road. OP probably traveled on one of those.

wbat do you think will happen now?

You say you've had "a letter asking to explain what happend from nothern rail". Does this letter accuse you of having committed an offence? Does it mention 'Railway Byelaw 18' or the 'Regulation of Railways Act 1889'?

It might help if you could upload a photo of this letter with your name and any identifying details blanked out.

 

[Helloxdakaja]

Yeah I know , I got the wrong train from Victoria then i got off at Warrington
Here’s the letter

 

[Kilopylae]

As the letter says, you should give Northern your side of the story. Keep your explanation short and based on the facts: you purchased a ticket at Victoria for the journey you intended to make, boarded the wrong train in error, intended to correct this error and return to Victoria, alighted at Picadilly in error, and then went to purchase another ticket that would have duplicated the one you already held, which was valid for your intended journey. Feel free to post a draft here for comments.

 

[Helloxdakaja]

Thank you I will, however I was verbally abusing the staff which is why it’s made things a lot worse . what do you think would happen because of that?
Also do you think actually could get prosecuted for fare evasion?
Am I even guilty of that? I don’t even know

 

[Fokx]

Why on the return trip from Warrington to Manchester did you not get off at Oxford Road where the train would of stopped for a few minutes before heading onwards to Piccadilly?

There’s no need to be verbally abuse to staff when YOU made a mistake

 

[Helloxdakaja]

really? I didn’t know that, I’m not from Manchester I was just visiting
My intention was to go back to Victoria and restart the journey basically cause I was lost and only really know that station
My story sounds so stupid but it’s true

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2020 ==

I know I shouldn’t have I had no right to speak to a member or staff like that but he was being AWFUL.
I’m not going to get into what had happend anyway that day as not looking for sympathy but can you imagine when you’re already upset and a brutal ticket inspector is shouting at you and saying your going to court And not going to be able to go on holiday and get a job ect.
of your going to snap
I’m only 20 so yes it was traumatising
But yes my fault of course

 

[Fokx]

really? I didn’t know that, I’m not from Manchester I was just visiting
My intention was to go back to Victoria and restart the journey basically cause I was lost and only really know that station
My story sounds so stupid but it’s true

I honestly don’t mean to sound rude or condescending but from an outsiders point of view your story does come across as unbelievable which is probably why the revenue staff member didn’t believe your story as there are screens on every platform which state the stations the train stops at, audio announcements on the stations, screens and announcements on trains and your last train would have stopped at Oxford Road for a few moments and should have been announced prior to stopping.

My advice would be to wait for the letter to arrive and be completely open and honest with your account of what had happened, stating your unfamiliarity with the area and the three stations of Manchester and apologise for any wrongdoing on your part, both the verbal abuse to the station staff and not alighting at the correct stop twice. I do appreciate that it must have been a stressful, confusing and upsetting situation but it never looks favourable to be abusive. Verbally abusing staff or using offensive language is against railway bylaws and can carry consequences in itself.

 

[Helloxdakaja]

I’m not from Manchester I literally got lost, and I hadn’t got the chance to even explain my story to the inspector he just wanted to get me in trouble .
But everything I’ve explained on here is open and honest but you said it doesn’t sound believable? So what do I write?
can I be prosecuted for verbally abusing staff? Surely not, that’s only fare evasion isn’t it
And I haven’t actually committed fare evasion

 

[Haywain]

There are Northern trains from Leeds to Chester that go from Victoria to Warrington Bank Quay calling at Newton-le-Willows and Earleston but not Oxford Road. OP probably traveled on one of those.

The question was about the second train which was from Warrington to Piccadilly, which I think is 99% certain to have stopped at Oxford Road.

 

[Helloxdakaja]

Yeah I’ve just checked and it does , that’s my fault AGAIN really made a lot of mistakes didn’t I.

 

[Haywain]

can I be prosecuted for verbally abusing staff? Surely not, that’s only fare evasion isn’t it

Yes, you can be prosecuted for verbally abusing staff. And ultimately it will be a court that decides if you have committed another offence related to holding the correct ticket, if it gets that far.

 

[Kilopylae]

Also do you think actually could get prosecuted for fare evasion?
Am I even guilty of that? I don’t even know

This is a little bit complicated, so my explanation will have to be fairly long, sorry.

Am I even guilty of that?

As your letter from Northern suggests, being "prosecuted for fare evasion" can mean being prosecuted under §5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 or it can mean being prosecuted under Railway Byelaw 18. These two create slightly different offences.

For you to have committed an offence under §5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, your actions must have shown an 'intent to avoid paying' your fare. From your explanation, you have not shown any intent to avoid paying your fare—you bought a ticket before travelling for the journey you intended to make. Boarding the wrong train is an innocent mistake and we've all done it, and your actions make it pretty clear that you went to Warrington Bank Quay in error. As your actions show no intent to avoid paying your fare, you have committed no offence under §5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

In contrast, Railway Byelaw 18 creates a 'strict liability offence', meaning that intent does not matter. If you travel on a train without a valid ticket, this is an offence under Byelaw 18. As you did not have a ticket between Manchester and Warrington Bank Quay, whilst you were on this train you were (technically) committing an offence under Byelaw 18.

Also do you think actually could get prosecuted for fare evasion?

At this point in time (i.e. before you send your reply to the letter, explaining your side of the story), Northern are under the impression that:

[1] You started your journey at Manchester Picadilly, intending to travel to Manchester Oxford Road,

[2] You tried to purchase a ticket from Manchester Victoria to Manchester Oxford Road, which is cheaper but only covers part of your journey, and

[3] Their RPI caught you.

If this were the case, you would have committed an offence under §5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, as purchasing a cheaper ticket covering only part of your journey (known as "short-faring") would show an intent to avoid paying the correct fare.

When you give your explanation, you will be claiming that you did not commit an offence under §5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, by stating that you were not trying to short-fare—but also admitting to having (technically) committed an offence under Byelaw 18, by stating that you travelled without a ticket from Manchester Victoria to Warrington Bank Quay, and then from Warrington Bank Quay to Manchester Picadilly.

So whether or not you get prosecuted, and what for, depends on whether or not Northern believe your explanation, and if they do, whether or not they choose to prosecute a Byelaw 18 offence for what you claim was an honest mistake. In other words, three things could happen:

[1] Northern don't believe your explanation and initiate a prosecution under §5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 for you buying a ticket from Victoria for Oxford Road when you intended to travel from Picadilly to Oxford Road.

[2] Northern do believe your explanation and drop the matter.

[3] Northern do believe your explanation but decide to initiate a prosecution under Byelaw 18 for your travel to and from Warrington Bank Quay.

 

[Helloxdakaja]

what offence do you think I could be accused of the regulations of railways act or railway bylaw offence?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2020 ==

Really? Would I get a criminal record for that? Even if I’m not found guilty of the other things

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2020 ==

could a lawyer get me out of this situation

 

[FQ]

Ok so from what I can see what happened was this:

1) You reached Victoria station and purchased a ticket from Victoria to Oxford Road, intending to travel on the direct train and then alight in Oxford road.
2) You boarded the wrong train, ending up in Warrington and then got the next train back to Manchester (which you thought would go to Victoria but actually went to Piccadilly).
3) You alighted at Piccadilly thinking it was Victoria and then went to get a new ticket from Victoria to Oxford Road in an attempt to start fresh on the journey.
4) You were accused of fare evasion by an abusive RPI and had your details taken.

I can easily see how something like this is possible - I've got on the wrong train myself before - and it looks like your problem was being 'abusive' back to the member of staff (I can see how difficult it'd be to not get really annoyed at it though because there's no excuse for a lack of customer service skills like you observed). On this point I advise you send a complaint to northern about the conduct of the RPI separate to the main issue.

I suggest you wait until Northern contact you asking for a version of events and then very clearly lay out what happened with regards to the journey - contacting a lawyer was a good idea too.

 

[Helloxdakaja]

thank you sooo much For your response!
I will use this advice

 

[Darandio]

thank you sooo much For your response!
I will use this advice

When you reply, don't get over-emotional about being traumatised because you are 20 years old. In their eyes you are an adult.

 

[Helloxdakaja]

I won’t, I contacted a lawyer they did say to mention how it will affect my career in the future and stuff though.

 

[tony6499]

Ok so from what I can see what happened was this:

1) You reached Victoria station and purchased a ticket from Victoria to Oxford Road, intending to travel on the direct train and then alight in Oxford road.
2) You boarded the wrong train, ending up in Warrington and then got the next train back to Manchester (which you thought would go to Victoria but actually went to Piccadilly).
3) You alighted at Piccadilly thinking it was Victoria and then went to get a new ticket from Victoria to Oxford Road in an attempt to start fresh on the journey.
4) You were accused of fare evasion by an abusive RPI and had your details taken.

I can easily see how something like this is possible - I've got on the wrong train myself before - and it looks like your problem was being 'abusive' back to the member of staff (I can see how difficult it'd be to not get really annoyed at it though because there's no excuse for a lack of customer service skills like you observed). On this point I advise you send a complaint to northern about the conduct of the RPI separate to the main issue.

I suggest you wait until Northern contact you asking for a version of events and then very clearly lay out what happened with regards to the journey - contacting a lawyer was a good idea too.

No proof of the RPI being abusive , he might have been assertive which is completely different especially if he has a body cam. Making a false accusation might just make things worse and scupper any hope of keeping things out of court

 

[Helloxdakaja]

No he was not being abusive he didn’t say anything offensive. He was just being rude that’s all

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2020 ==

i thought only the police wore body cams?

 

[Darandio]

i thought only the police wore body cams?

Not at all, they are becoming much more widely used in places where staff have a tendency to be abused.

 

[Helloxdakaja]

This one wasn’t I don’t think

 

[30907]

Welcome to ge forum, but please excuse all the questions and challenges - these help us make sense of a very unusual account.

(BTW you were very unlucky, there is only one train a day from Warrington that doesn't stop at Oxford Rd, and it was around the time you travelled!)

1. Did you start your journey at Victoria that day - if not, where?
What time (roughly) did you leave Victoria?

2. When did you notice that you were on the wrong train? Why did you not get out at its first stop (Newton le Willows)

3. Roughly what time did you arrive and leave Warrington?
Where did you think the train you boarded was heading?

4. Did you notice that the train passed Oxford Road without stopping?

5. When you arrived at Piccadilly what did you do? Were you trying to go back to Oxford Road or to leave the station?

6. Where were you stopped - was it on the platform or upstairs? Did the inspector see you apparently buying a fresh ticket?
Why did you not show him the original Victoria to Oxford Road ticket?

As there is currently only one train an hour from Victoria to Oxford Road and Piccadilly, and not many people would make exactly that journey, my guess is that the inspector suspected that you were attempting to "short-fare" when actually you had travelled much further.
In fact, from your story, you were guilty of travelling Oxford Rd to Piccadilly without a valid ticket but nothing more.

You need to tell Northern clearly what happened, in sequence, for them to have a chance of believing you. You also need to apologise for your abusive behaviour, but that is a separate issue. You perhaps need to say something about being more careful in future to catch the correct train. Above all, keep it as short as possible.

You are welcome to post a draft on here - I wouldn't consult a solicitor at this stage.