fare evasion conviction

[spag23]

However the rest of info is correct.

Just to be clear, the Date of Birth was wrong (and not just one digit?) on the DBS, but your address was correct? If so, are you confident that you would have received any post during this period, ie you hadn't moved, or shared a letter box? If the address was wrong - or not stated - this could simply all relate to someone else with the same name.

 

[Cantab26]

I am not lying at all

No one is accusing you of lying.

I think the situation is not clear to you

No, it isn’t, because you haven’t provided the information to clarify what happened when. You still haven’t.

Let me explain to you I was travelling from york to Leeds, back in 2020 I had a ticket but it was for the earlier train that I missed and it was transpennine

So you travelled on a train without a valid ticket in 2020? Why? For example, did you miss a connection due to a delayed earlier train? Or is it simply that you didn’t get to the station in time to catch your booked train? Or something else?

Now the TC asked me to buy a new ticket for which I didn’t have no money at all he took my details off me.. but after I never received anything from up until now when dbs check showed me that I have this conviction

You gave your details, haven’t received anything since and you have t paid for the outstanding fare. Is that correct?

Have you changed address in that time?

the offence was done in. may 2022 but I and 100% positive that I never had such problem on the train or with any ticket checker since that day.

Fine.

Also I have valid train tickets for may 2022 and may 2021 so it makes it impossible that the offence date is may 2022 that I have been alleged for.

You haven’t explained what the relevant date is in May 2022, what journey you made on that day and what ticket you held so it is impossible to know whether you had valid tickets or not.

The difficulty with your account is that you have repeatedly stated with certainty that you held a valid ticket in May 2022, but have provided no details of it (despite multiple requests) and have not been able to confirm where you were on the day in question.

Even if you are telling the truth, this type of discrepancy can quite easily undermine your credibility should you need to give evidence once this conviction is set aside.

 

[John Palmer]

You haven’t explained what the relevant date is in May 2022, what journey you made on that day and what ticket you held so it is impossible to know whether you had valid tickets or not.

The difficulty with your account is that you have repeatedly stated with certainty that you held a valid ticket in May 2022, but have provided no details of it (despite multiple requests) and have not been able to confirm where you were on the day in question.

Even if you are telling the truth, this type of discrepancy can quite easily undermine your credibility should you need to give evidence once this conviction is set aside.

In post #6 @tuhani did say that the date of the offence appearing on his DBS certificate was 10 May 2022. He may or may not have travelled by train on that date, and he may or may not have retained a train ticket for any journey he made on that date. At this juncture forensic analysis of a possible ticket irregularity has negligible value since we have no knowledge of the facts alleged by the relevant operator to give rise to the offence, and it is entirely possible that the OP also lacks such knowledge.

If @tuhani wishes to receive further assistance from this forum, no doubt he will share details of the offence he is alleged to have committed after he has secured a re-hearing of the case against him by filing the appropriate statutory declaration, at which stage such details will be given to him by the prosecutor. Until then I cannot see what is to be gained by an exercise in speculation as to the nature of the case brought against him by a train operator, or by impugning his credibility with suggestions that there is a discrepancy in the account he gives.

@tspaul26, I have much respect for the valuable contributions you make to this forum, but please, let's concentrate for now on steps the OP needs to take as a matter of urgency in response to his discovery that a conviction was recorded against him last September.

 

[some bloke]

When you contact the court staff, you can also get the witness statement and the charge/behaviour alleged. Those may help clarify what's happened.

Again, it may be easiest if they email you images of the paperwork, or images and some text, rather than answering a list of questions about the contents. The position may become clear over the phone, though it's a good idea to get the information in writing.

 

[John Palmer]

@tuhani, take a careful look at your DBS certificate to make sure whether it contains, as apparently it should, the name of the court that convicted you. Unfortunately there are several courts in West Yorkshire that may have dealt with matter, so if the court's name has been omitted from the DBS certificate you will need to contact the DBS to obtain this information. Once you have the court's name, putting it into the online court finder facility at https://www.gov.uk/find-court-tribunal should provide you with the appropriate court's telephone number and both email and postal addresses.

 

[Puffing Devil]

That's not correct. SD appointments are not dependent on prosecutors' locations.

They were aligned in my court for Private Prosecutions. Your experience may vary.

 

[some bloke]

Do court staff not have access to information on convictions at other courts - so that @tuhani could contact Leeds, say, and staff could see in a database which court was involved and perhaps other details? Maybe as the court name isn't on the certificate, the DBS doesn't have it; or the court staff might find the information faster.

Perhaps someone on here knows from past cases that one court in West Yorkshire is much more likely to have been involved.

 

[skyhigh]

Perhaps someone on here knows from past cases that one court in West Yorkshire is much more likely to have been involved.

To be honest I'm a little unsure where the alleged offence took place, but I can see reference to Leeds. If it was Northern, almost everything Leeds/York/Sheffield relates goes through Doncaster Magistrates with a few cases through Kirklees. I can't see a single prosecution that took place in Leeds over the last 3 months on the latest list.

 

[greyman42]

Let me explain to you I was travelling from york to Leeds, back in 2020 I had a ticket but it was for the earlier train that I missed and it was transpennine .

£600 seems a steep fine for York to Leeds?

 

[Haywain]

£600 seems a steep fine for York to Leeds?

Fine, costs, victim surcharge and unpaid fare. The fine alone comes in at £440 as standard, I believe, although it can be lower if information about the means of the accused is provided.

 

[greyman42]

Fine, costs, victim surcharge and unpaid fare. The fine alone comes in at £440 as standard, I believe, although it can be lower if information about the means of the accused is provided.

Thanks, i did not know that.

 

[skyhigh]

£600 seems a steep fine for York to Leeds?

Fine, costs, victim surcharge and unpaid fare. The fine alone comes in at £440 as standard, I believe, although it can be lower if information about the means of the accused is provided.

The Anytime Day Single from York-Leeds is £17.60. On the court results list I have in front of me, there is an item which I would guess involves a York-Leeds journey as the amounts match up. In this case, the totals were:
Fine awarded - £220.00
Costs awarded - £150.00
Compensation awarded - £17.60
Victim surcharge - £34.00
Total - £421.60

The fine awarded seems to be either £440 or £220, so a total of £600 is to be expected if no evidence on income was given.

(Just to be clear, the list I have simply shows the offence prosecuted, the court location and fees. I have no way of knowing who was involved, the date of the offence or ay further details).

 

[Mzzzs]

Earlier the op posted 'I had a ticket but it was for the earlier train that I missed and it was transpennine' this could be the start of all this. Your ticket could have not been valid on the train you took which means you didn't have a ticket for that train. This means an offence was done however, this could be wrong it depends on the type of ticket the op had. It would be best to find the ticket soon to check it was valid on the train taken.

 

[tuhani]

Hi, i think @John Palmer is right i would talk to DBS and ask them about the court that convicted me, moreover I would also go into Leeds magistrates court to ask if i can get some information from them.

Also, for some people the information in still unclear as i don't know my self too for what they have convicted or is it even me or someone else. On the DBS its only states the "west Yorkshire magistrates court magistrates" and the fine imposed is broken down as such. @I was travelling form York to huddersfield. (All the details will become more clear when I get to know the details from the court.)

Fine awarded - £440.00
Costs awarded - £150.00
Compensation awarded - £11.80
Victim surcharge - £44.00
Total - £645.80



Also one more suggestion please, shall i mention about the matter that happened in May 2020 to the court/DBS/ while getting the details or shall i just ask the details alone about the conviction that is on my DBS. Thanks

 

[John Palmer]

I advise against any mention of the May 2020 incident. It remains to be seen whether it has any relevance, and unless and until you learn that the DBS Certificate was incorrect in stating (as you have told us) that the offence was committed on 10 May 2022 you are justified in assuming that that was the date of the offence of which you have been convicted, and with which you must now deal.

 

[tuhani]

Hi moderator can you please approve my attachments i wana get some suggestions on my case thanks

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jan 2023 ==

Hi guys, I have taken the copy from the court and all the details are in there firstly I would apologies for some of the dates provided from my end were wrong( due to my negligence).


However I just remembered that this silly mistake happend I was checking the tickets of 16-17 savers for my cousin and I forgot to remove the discount and accidentally I bought the ticket with the discount 16-17 savers I didn’t realise until the ticket checker told and it was a shock to me even though I had my valid 26-30 rail discount card. But I never reviewed any notice about it. Can you please guide what shall I do now about it. Thanks

 

[AlterEgo]

It's really important you get a complete grip of what is happening.

You have told people you were adamant you had no issues with on-train ticket checks since 2020, except now you do remember you claimed a heavier discount than the one you're entitled to ,and had your details taken only in May 2022.

You were also adamant you had a valid ticket for your journey, except now we see you didn't.

The company has your correct address yet you have been convicted of the offence after you didn't respond to 1) a letter requesting your explanation and 2) a "fixed penalty" (it may be worth finding out what exactly this is, because it can't be a Penalty Fare and a train company cannot impose any other kind of fixed penalty outwith the NRCoT!). Finally, you say not to have received a third piece of correspondence, the court summons.

Your first priority is to get a Statutory Declaration to set aside the verdict, and then once that is done come back and ask for advice on how to settle out of court.

 

[Cantab26]

Can you please guide what shall I do now about it.

You need to ask the court to confirm whether this prosecution was commenced either (a) by way of information and summons or (b) by way of written charge and a single justice procedure notice.

This is vitally important information because in situation (b) you have to lodge some additional papers with the court when you submit the statutory declaration.

 

[Elwyn]

Something that I am curious about is the court fine which was due to be paid by 12th Oct 2022. Has it in fact been paid? If so, by whom, and why?

Or is the fine outstanding? In which case surely there would have been follow-up correspondence asking for the money (and threatening further legal action if not paid).

 

[tuhani]

Tbh I didn’t remember it myself about this and however I have admitted my mistake and apologised in the first place to all the member who are really trying to help me

It's really important you get a complete grip of what is happening.

You have told people you were adamant you had no issues with on-train ticket checks since 2020, except now you do remember you claimed a heavier discount than the one you're entitled to ,and had your details taken only in May 2022.

You were also adamant you had a valid ticket for your journey, except now we see you didn't.

The company has your correct address yet you have been convicted of the offence after you didn't respond to 1) a letter requesting your explanation and 2) a "fixed penalty" (it may be worth finding out what exactly this is, because it can't be a Penalty Fare and a train company cannot impose any other kind of fixed penalty outwith the NRCoT!). Finally, you say not to have received a third piece of correspondence, the court summons.

Your first priority is to get a Statutory Declaration to set aside the verdict, and then once that is done come back and ask for advice on how to settle out of cou

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Jan 2023 ==

You need to ask the court to confirm whether this prosecution was commenced either (a) by way of information and summons or (b) by way of written charge and a single justice procedure notice.

I have spoken to court SINGLE JUSTICE SERVICE OVER THE PHONE they have informed it was decided by (a) by way of information and summons and they told me you can put in SD is there any advise while filling the SD. The SJS correspondence have advised me to talk to northern and ask them to take the withdraw proceeding shall I go ahead and talk to them ?

Also all the northern have the wrong address and all the correspondence might have been going to my neighbour.

 

[MotCO]

Also all the northern have the wrong address and all the correspondence might have been going to my neighbour.

Presumably, this is why you had not received any previous communications. If your neighbour had passed you the correspondence and you had chosen to ignore it, a Statutory Declaration may not be appropriate, but I am not a lawyer. Others on this forum will be better placed to advise.

 

[Haywain]

Also all the northern have the wrong address and all the correspondence might have been going to my neighbour.

Perhaps you should have a word with your neighbour about what happens when post isn't passed on.

 

[skyhigh]

Also all the northern have the wrong address and all the correspondence might have been going to my neighbour.

"Might" have been going to your neighbour? Is there a reason you think it might not?

You really need to be 100% clear now. Did Northern definitely have the wrong address, or did you just ignore correspondence and hope it would go away? You need to try and convince Northern to offer you a settlement once the conviction is dealt with via the SD. "I would have paid the amount you asked for but as you had the wrong address I never got your letter" is a lot more effective than "I never read the letter".

Please note, I'm not accusing you of lying. Just that you were sure about the date and that you hadn't had any incidents and that turned out to be mistaken.

 

[Haywain]

Did Northern definitely have the wrong address, or did you just ignore correspondence and hope it would go away?

This is also crucial to putting in a statutory declaration.

 

[tuhani]

"Might" have been going to your neighbour? Is there a reason you think it might not?

You really need to be 100% clear now. Did Northern definitely have the wrong address, or did you just ignore correspondence and hope it would go away? You need to try and convince Northern to offer you a settlement once the conviction is dealt with via the SD. "I would have paid the amount you asked for but as you had the wrong address I never got your letter" is a lot more effective than "I never read the letter".

Please note, I'm not accusing you of lying. Just that you were sure about the date and that you hadn't had any incidents and that turned out to be mistaken.

Its definitely been going to my neighbours address I have confirmed it with her and now I am worried what if they convict me for giving false details ( address & DOB) as well ? I am really stressing out!!! Moreover the fine has been passed to debt collection agency called Marston's so if i want to pay the fine then I have pay their costs too i don't know how much would it be (£1000 +).

If i submit in the SD and open the case again can i be questioned about the wrong DOB address???? please guys advice me i am really stressing out...

@some bloke
@John Palmer

 

[some bloke]

now I am worried what if they convict me for giving false details ( address & DOB) as well ? I am really stressing out!!!

My first reaction is that it doesn't seem very likely.

Under the railway legislation (the same 1889 Act) they would have to start a prosecution within six months of the event.

As regards any other legislation, it doesn't seem serious enough or easy enough to prove that anyone would prosecute for some more serious offence.

As you gave your real name, it may seem difficult for a company to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you deliberately gave wrong details rather than that there were mistakes. It wouldn't be a very clever plan to give one's own name which a neighbour can easily link to the alleged offender.

is there any advise while filling the SD.

Yes - read the form and instructions carefully.

Make sure everything you say is accurate.

Where the court has different details, you can put for example, "My address is...; the court record gives my address as...".

Tick "section 14" because that's the one for a summons.

Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980

An Act to consolidate certain enactments relating to the jurisdiction of, and the practice and procedure before, magistrates’ courts and the functions of justices’ clerks, and to matters connected therewith, with amendments to give effect to recommendations of the Law Commission.

www.legislation.gov.uk

The SJS correspondence have advised me to talk to northern and ask them to take the withdraw proceeding shall I go ahead and talk to them ?

Yes, but at the moment you need to concentrate on the declaration. Submit it by Wednesday unless the court staff confirm in writing that Thursday is OK.

For now, there are no active "proceedings" which Northern can drop.

After the court voids the verdict, Northern can drop the case.

"Might" have been going to your neighbour? Is there a reason you think it might not?

There would be doubt if the neighbour hadn't told him yet that they did get the mail.

 

[skyhigh]

now I am worried what if they convict me for giving false details ( address & DOB) as well ?

Did you give them a false address and DOB, or did they record it incorrectly?

 

[John Palmer]

Belatedly catching up, but, having seen @some bloke's post, I think he has covered most of the pertinent points so I don't have a lot to add to it. If anything I add is wrong I hope it will be corrected by a criminal law practitioner.

The proceedings were evidently commenced by the laying of an information. The effect of this is that when you lodge your completed statutory declaration with the court, you are not required to provide a statement at the same time indicating whether you intend to plead guilty.

Provided the SD reaches the court in good time, the proceedings against you will be rolled back to the point at which the application for a summons was made. The conviction recorded against you in your absence will be treated as void, and the debt collection agency will, for the time being at least, have no lawful grounds for demanding from you payment of the fines, etc, the court then imposed. However, the application for a summons will remain valid and should in due course lead to the service upon you of a fresh summons giving you notice of when you have to attend court to answer the charge against you.

This should provide you with a breathing space within which to contact Northern Trains' prosecution department and try to negotiate a settlement that will avert the risk you face of being convicted of an offence. Don't delay in taking advantage of that opportunity.

I do not see it being to your advantage to respond here to the question about whether you gave a false address or DoB. You know whether or not you did so, and must be prepared to deal with the consequences if you did. I emphasize that you should take care to make a truthful statutory declaration, as you may face severe consequences if you do not. Having said that, I am inclined to agree with @some bloke that an additional prosecution for giving false details about yourself does not seem particularly likely once you have made it clear to Northern that you are anxious to agree a resolution of your case that is acceptable to that company.

I don't propose to add anything now about the way in which you approach Northern in an effort to reach agreement with them save to say that the threads in this section of the forum contain some excellent guidance in that respect; in particular @Hadders has offered some guidelines in a number of threads that you may find helpful.

 

[Puffing Devil]

A reminder - submitting an SD form is not the same as making/swearing the declaration. Unless you have an appointment with the court to swear the declaration, you must have the declaration sworn before a solicitor before you take the completed and sworn declaration to the court within 21 days.

There is a provision in the legislation that allows a court leeway to accept a declaration sworn after 21 days, and this will normally apply if they give you a date to attend to swear the SD in court, knowing that it is more than the deadline. As I have said, going to court to swear runs the risk that they may seek to re-open the case there and then. My court used to align railway SDs with the days the prosecutors were in court. Others may not. However - if you have a date for court, you may start negotiating with Northern right up until you step into the courtroom. Many have agreed on a settlement with the prosecutor at the courtroom door.

Whatever route you take - either get the SD sworn now with a solicitor or make an appointment with the court to go in and swear. If over the time limit with the court, confirm in writing that they have you will be attending after the usual time and that the expectation is that they are exercising their discretion in accepting a late SD.

 

[spag23]

Its definitely been going to my neighbours address I have confirmed it with her

Was the neighbour unaware of your name? Even if so, surely there would have been a return address on the (very official-looking) envelopes. And it's not wise to leave a wrong association with your address un-challenged. It's often the start of a scam, and could end with emptied bank accounts or - however misinformed - bailiffs at your door.
These points are not just academic; I would imagine the TOC would be asking the same questions when considering their next course of action.