Fare Evasion - Chiltern Railways

[PleaseHelp]

I would really appreciate any help on this as I have lost sleep and anxiety levels are through the roof since this has happened.

I was recently spoken to by investigators at Marylebone Station (Chiltern Railways) where I had been buying a shorter ticket than the intended destination in the evenings, resulting in saving about £5 per day. The two investigators were quite intimidating (one in plain clothes) and showed me a memory stick in a plastic bag saying "do you know what this is" and then saying they can check cameras (I think this was more to get people to cough up...which I did). He filled in the form of his question and I told them that I was in the wrong and knowingly purchased an incorrect ticket in the evenings for about a month.

They said I would recieve a letter in the post and would have to reply to it but were very vague about it other than that.

Suffice to say I know I was deeply in the wrong but I am extremely sorry for what I have done and I will certainly never be doing that ever again.

I am more than happy to pay whatever fine it is to just get this over and dealt with.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Others here are far more expert than me, but the usual advice is that you simply need to wait to hear from them, at which time you can post the letter (with identifying details removed) and get help on how to reply.

In the meantime, there isn’t really anything you can do to expedite the process or influence the outcome. I know it’s easy to say, but try not to worry.

Having said that, if you do eventually get offered a settlement to keep the matter out of court, then it sounds like it could be a fair amount (hundreds), so you may want to start saving. Unfortunately, deliberate fare evasion on well over a dozen occasions will be considered to be relatively serious (though I think I’m right in saying that you don’t have to worry about prison, assuming there isn’t more to this).

As I say, others are far more knowledgeable than me, but I’m chiming in because you’ve had no other replies so far. Again, please try not to let this get on top of you; it’s by no means the end of the world, and you’ve come to the right place for advice.

 

[WesternLancer]

I would really appreciate any help on this as I have lost sleep and anxiety levels are through the roof since this has happened.

I was recently spoken to by investigators at Marylebone Station (Chiltern Railways) where I had been buying a shorter ticket than the intended destination in the evenings, resulting in saving about £5 per day. The two investigators were quite intimidating (one in plain clothes) and showed me a memory stick in a plastic bag saying "do you know what this is" and then saying they can check cameras (I think this was more to get people to cough up...which I did). He filled in the form of his question and I told them that I was in the wrong and knowingly purchased an incorrect ticket in the evenings for about a month.

They said I would recieve a letter in the post and would have to reply to it but were very vague about it other than that.

Suffice to say I know I was deeply in the wrong but I am extremely sorry for what I have done and I will certainly never be doing that ever again.

I am more than happy to pay whatever fine it is to just get this over and dealt with.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

There have been a few cases on here ref Chiltern Railways - use the search engine to search this part of the forum 'chiltern'

Here is one: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/chiltern-rail-wrong-ticket.221394/#post-5274233
- they do seem to take a firm line and employ TIL (Transport Investigations Ltd) to follow up on their behalf. TIL seem to require persistent engagement to get to the point of settling out of court offers.

At this stage you need to wait to hear from them by post (take it you gave a correct address? - if not there is every chance you will get found guilty in court due to consequences of failed response to their letter which ends up with more problems for you).

They will already know they have a very good chance of securing a guilty verdict in court because you state that you admitted to them what you have been doing, so that puts them in a strong position vis a vis asking you for a settlement (ie the alternative is to go to court, get a criminal record, but a fine levied based on the formula the court uses which relates to your income - so you can work out what that might be if you were minded to opt for that instead of engaging with them to try and secure a settlement prior to court action - which sounds like what you would favour doing if you can).

At this stage I would make as accurate a list as you possibly can of every date you short fared and the sum you evaded (you may need to consider the full cost 'Anytime' fare as the price they will now expect you to pay - even if you traveled off peak). This will give you an idea of what they will expect you to pay as a starting point to avoid court. If you do not know how to work that out, post the stations to and from here and someone will tell you.

The reason for you making your own list is in case they accuse you of doing this more times than you actually did. I doubt they would trawl through endless CCTV to look for you but since you can not know that they will not, you need to be accurate in your lists so maybe you can check diary / appointments to get this correct. If they have been checking CCTV it's more likely to be to confirm on a few occasions where you truly got on or off in order to have the evidence of at least one clear offence.

Technically you would not be fined (unless they take you to court), it will be a sum based on fares evaded and an admin fee to cover their costs of investigating your case. They may well not take into account the fares you already paid as part payment since they may consider that part of your premeditated attempt to evade correct payment.

Stick with this forum for good advice at each stage - eg when you hear from them and how best to respond.

 

[PleaseHelp]

Others here are far more expert than me, but the usual advice is that you simply need to wait to hear from them, at which time you can post the letter (with identifying details removed) and get help on how to reply.

In the meantime, there isn’t really anything you can do to expedite the process or influence the outcome. I know it’s easy to say, but try not to worry.

Having said that, if you do eventually get offered a settlement to keep the matter out of court, then it sounds like it could be a fair amount (hundreds), so you may want to start saving. Unfortunately, deliberate fare evasion on well over a dozen occasions will be considered to be relatively serious (though I think I’m right in saying that you don’t have to worry about prison, assuming there isn’t more to this).

As I say, others are far more knowledgeable than me, but I’m chiming in because you’ve had no other replies so far. Again, please try not to let this get on top of you; it’s by no means the end of the world, and you’ve come to the right place for advice.

Thank you for replying, I really do appreciate it & it makes me feel a lot less alone in this. I haven't even told my family because of the shame I have been feeling since this happened.

I am going to try to take your advice of not worrying, although this is really hard to do in this situation and it is not one I want to find myself in ever again.

To be honest I deserve having to pay hundreds of pounds for this as I was deeply in the wrong! Am I correct in understanding the maximum amount that TIL (presumably will be the ones acting on behalf of Chiltern Railway) would be able to ask for would be £1,000? I hope it isn't that much but it would give me some peace of mind knowing there is an upper limit.

 

[skyhigh]

Am I correct in understanding the maximum amount that TIL (presumably will be the ones acting on behalf of Chiltern Railway) would be able to ask for would be £1,000?

For an out of court settlement they can ask for pretty much any amount they like. I'd be surprised if they did ask for a £1000 or more though.

 

[PleaseHelp]

There have been a few cases on here ref Chiltern Railways - use the search engine to search this part of the forum 'chiltern'

Here is one: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/chiltern-rail-wrong-ticket.221394/#post-5274233
- they do seem to take a firm line and employ TIL (Transport Investigations Ltd) to follow up on their behalf. TIL seem to require persistent engagement to get to the point of settling out of court offers.

At this stage you need to wait to hear from them by post (take it you gave a correct address? - if not there is every chance you will get found guilty in court due to consequences of failed response to their letter which ends up with more problems for you).

They will already know they have a very good chance of securing a guilty verdict in court because you state that you admitted to them what you have been doing, so that puts them in a strong position vis a vis asking you for a settlement (ie the alternative is to go to court, get a criminal record, but a fine levied based on the formula the court uses which relates to your income - so you can work out what that might be if you were minded to opt for that instead of engaging with them to try and secure a settlement prior to court action - which sounds like what you would favour doing if you can).

At this stage I would make as accurate a list as you possibly can of every date you short fared and the sum you evaded (you may need to consider the full cost 'Anytime' fare as the price they will now expect you to pay - even if you traveled off peak). This will give you an idea of what they will expect you to pay as a starting point to avoid court. If you do not know how to work that out, post the stations to and from here and someone will tell you.

The reason for you making your own list is in case they accuse you of doing this more times than you actually did. I doubt they would trawl through endless CCTV to look for you but since you can not know that they will not, you need to be accurate in your lists so maybe you can check diary / appointments to get this correct. If they have been checking CCTV it's more likely to be to confirm on a few occasions where you truly got on or off in order to have the evidence of at least one clear offence.

Technically you would not be fined (unless they take you to court), it will be a sum based on fares evaded and an admin fee to cover their costs of investigating your case. They may well not take into account the fares you already paid as part payment since they may consider that part of your premeditated attempt to evade correct payment.

Stick with this forum for good advice at each stage - eg when you hear from them and how best to respond.

Hi, thank you for your response. I was reading a few of the forums earlier and yes it does seem like persistency is the key for TIL, do you think getting a solicitor do write a letter of correspondence would help me and my situation...don't know if it will help or annoy them?

I can confirm that I gave completely accurate details to them to the best of my knowledge because I felt an overwhelming sense of guilt and I still do now.

Yes as you stated I would certainly prefer to settle this out of court as it will be significantly less stressful.

Good idea to create a list and see where it would potentially stand. Do you think the accusing of more times than you did seems to be a generic statement they make when they feel you aren't telling the truth? The investigator did make a comment on the day saying he believed what I was saying and that I was being truthful? So perhaps they won't state this? Yes, I agree with your sentiment that they would check a few cases to know that they have clear evidence if it was to get to court. Do you think TIL would access/even be able to access Chiltern Railways payment data to see when certain tickets were purchased? This would seem a more efficient way of checking? but suspect they may not be able to do so under GDPR regulations? But I honestly have no idea?

Yes, I would be happy to be any sum right about now to have this stress out of my life (self-inflicted I know).

Thank you again for your response, I do genuinely appreciate it!

 

[PleaseHelp]

For an out of court settlement they can ask for pretty much any amount they like. I'd be surprised if they did ask for a £1000 or more though.

Thank you for your response.

Okay, at least I know that now, part of me would think they wouldn't ask for more than that as I believe that is the maximum fine in court?

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you for your response.

Okay, at least I know that now, part of me would think they wouldn't ask for more than that as I believe that is the maximum fine in court?

They can demand more. A fine is the punishment part of the sentence and goes to the Treasury, not the train company. You can be ordered to pay back outstanding fares - the money effectively “stolen” - on top of that.

 

[PleaseHelp]

They can demand more. A fine is the punishment part of the sentence and goes to the Treasury, not the train company. You can be ordered to pay back outstanding fares - the money effectively “stolen” - on top of that.

Okay understood, thank you for your help.

 

[Bucksman]

Yes as stated above the max £1000 is a maximum fine ( doesn’t include the fares avoided / costs the railway could ask for + victim surcharge etc.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Here's the advice I normally give to other posters who seek our advice in similar circumstances.

You are likely to receive a letter from the train company (or an investigation company acting on their behalf) which will probably take a few weeks to arrive saying that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be a few hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter when it arrives (with personal details removed) and I'm sure members on here will be happy to assist in proof reading your reply.

 

[PleaseHelp]

Yes as stated above the max £1000 is a maximum fine ( doesn’t include the fares avoided / costs the railway could ask for + victim surcharge etc.

Okay thank you for clarifying

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jan 2022 ==

Welcome to the forum!

Here's the advice I normally give to other posters who seek our advice in similar circumstances.

You are likely to receive a letter from the train company (or an investigation company acting on their behalf) which will probably take a few weeks to arrive saying that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be a few hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter when it arrives (with personal details removed) and I'm sure members on here will be happy to assist in proof reading your reply.

Do you think it would benefit me if this was to come from a lawyer? Thank you for your help - it truly is much appreciated!

 

[Hadders]

Do you think it would benefit me if this was to come from a lawyer? Thank you for your help - it truly is much appreciated!

There is no need to involve a lawyer. There are many threads in this sub-forum with cases similar to yours where an out of court settlement has been agreed without needing to involve lawyers.

 

[PleaseHelp]

There is no need to involve a lawyer. There are many threads in this sub-forum with cases similar to yours where an out of court settlement has been agreed without needing to involve lawyers.

Thank you for your reply, are you able to point me to any threads where the length of time such as a month is similar to mine? would be interested to see that. Do you still think an out-of-court settlement will be possible with this length of evasion? I certainly hope so as I have definitely learned my lesson and I will not be doing it ever again!

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi, thank you for your response. I was reading a few of the forums earlier and yes it does seem like persistency is the key for TIL, do you think getting a solicitor do write a letter of correspondence would help me and my situation...don't know if it will help or annoy them?

I can confirm that I gave completely accurate details to them to the best of my knowledge because I felt an overwhelming sense of guilt and I still do now.

Yes as you stated I would certainly prefer to settle this out of court as it will be significantly less stressful.

Good idea to create a list and see where it would potentially stand. Do you think the accusing of more times than you did seems to be a generic statement they make when they feel you aren't telling the truth? The investigator did make a comment on the day saying he believed what I was saying and that I was being truthful? So perhaps they won't state this? Yes, I agree with your sentiment that they would check a few cases to know that they have clear evidence if it was to get to court. Do you think TIL would access/even be able to access Chiltern Railways payment data to see when certain tickets were purchased? This would seem a more efficient way of checking? but suspect they may not be able to do so under GDPR regulations? But I honestly have no idea?

Yes, I would be happy to be any sum right about now to have this stress out of my life (self-inflicted I know).

Thank you again for your response, I do genuinely appreciate it!

Hi - apols for delay in responding to your queries - several points raised so hope the below helps break these down:

a) do you think getting a solicitor do write a letter of correspondence would help me and my situation...don't know if it will help or annoy them?

As said above by other poster I tend to agree not, if you feel capable of writing clearly in the sort of way @Hadders has outlined above. However - if you have access to free legal advice eg via your trade union or even home insurance then you may want to contact them to see if they would help you at no or minimal cost. Also, if you fail to secure an out of court settlement with them, and things are heading for court, you could then seek help of a solicitor at that stage if you felt you needed it.
EDIT - however - note this different case and the view expressed by the poster who used a solicitor to help them resolve what looked like a deliberate fare evasion on more than one occasion - I can't recall if GTRailway also use TIL:

Fare Evasion on GTR, settle out of court

Hey there, A couple of weeks back I was accused of fare evasion, I found these forums very informative and they helped me so much. Because of this I wanted to share my story to help other people going through a similar thing. I knew that I was going to get a letter in the post asking me to...

www.railforums.co.uk

b) Yes as you stated I would certainly prefer to settle this out of court as it will be significantly less stressful.

Understood, tho worth saying that one or two cases that have been to court on this forum IIRC the individuals have reported back that court staff have been helpful, and magistrates reasonable - thus suggesting it was not too stressful. But if you want to avoid a criminal record than that is of course a factor. You can weigh up likely court penalty via sentencing guidelines, I think others who know about that have posted that before to give people an idea of the income related penalty likely to be imposed.

c) Do you think the accusing of more times than you did seems to be a generic statement they make when they feel you aren't telling the truth? The investigator did make a comment on the day saying he believed what I was saying and that I was being truthful? So perhaps they won't state this?

I have no idea for sure but suspect it may be the starting point for a conversation with a suspected repeat offender to frighten you into admitting stuff to start with - once you have admitted it of course they then know they have much of the 'evidence' they might subsequently need to pursue the case in the way they wish (an alternative, but I suspect one that would massively increase your chances of being prosecuted in court would be to have said nothing about previous incidences and intimated to them that if they wanted to accuse you of that then they would have to find some evidence and present the matter in court, but I doubt that would have been the best thing to say, or have helped your prospects, since it is clear that you regret the whole thing and want to 'do the right thing'). On the wider point, I just think having your own (private) clear list of times / dates you did this will help you understand if any offer to settle they make is reasonable in financial terms.

d) Do you think TIL would access/even be able to access Chiltern Railways payment data to see when certain tickets were purchased? This would seem a more efficient way of checking? but suspect they may not be able to do so under GDPR regulations? But I honestly have no idea?

I am sure that TIL would have access to this data and GDPR would not prevent that.

Good luck with this, and of course I am sure people on this forum will give you advice on how to respond to things as matters develop.

 

[Hadders]

Thank you for your reply, are you able to point me to any threads where the length of time such as a month is similar to mine? would be interested to see that. Do you still think an out-of-court settlement will be possible with this length of evasion? I certainly hope so as I have definitely learned my lesson and I will not be doing it ever again!

Here's a similar thread from last year.

British Transport Police - caution or interview under caution? Confused!

Hi there, I have today been caught carrying an invalid ticket for travel. I was caught by the British Transport Police. I will come back on and give more details when I can talk about it without having a panic attack but I need to know where I stand with this for work and whether I am under a...

www.railforums.co.uk

I also suggest waiting until the letter arrives to see exactly what they are dealing with. The chances are they will only mention one specific journey. I would never suggest lying about the situation but if they ask about irregularities about one journey then I'd reply specifically about that one journey. I would not mention any other journeys unless they specifically ask about them because you would potentially incriminate yourself if you did so.

 

[WesternLancer]

I also suggest waiting until the letter arrives to see exactly what they are dealing with. The chances are they will only mention one specific journey. I would never suggest lying about the situation but if they ask about irregularities about one journey then I'd reply specifically about that one journey. I would not mention any other journeys unless they specifically ask about them because you would potentially incriminate yourself if you did so.

In respect of the OP making a list of occasions they have short fared in the way described, for their own private use as it were, whilst they await their letter - I 100% agree with this point / advice from @Hadders

 

[PleaseHelp]

Hi guys, I hope you are all well and had a nice weekend. Sorry for the lack of replies in the last week on here, been trying to not read anymore as it gives me more anxiety when I do. But have just thought of this question and would be grateful if someone knows and could share:
How long does TIL give you to reply to the letter? is it a week, two weeks, 21 days?
I am yet to receive mine and expecting it in the next couple of weeks, I just don't want to miss the window if it's only a week and then be rushing to get a reply together.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I believe that it's a couple of weeks.

 

[30907]

Hi guys, I hope you are all well and had a nice weekend. Sorry for the lack of replies in the last week on here, been trying to not read anymore as it gives me more anxiety when I do. But have just thought of this question and would be grateful if someone knows and could share:
How long does TIL give you to reply to the letter? is it a week, two weeks, 21 days?
I am yet to receive mine and expecting it in the next couple of weeks, I just don't want to miss the window if it's only a week and then be rushing to get a reply together.

14 or 21 days sounds right - and don't panic about missing the deadline, especially if the date you receive it is well after the date on the letter. My impression is that the important thing is to reply reasonably promptly - so if you are going abroad for months, make some arrangements!

 

[PleaseHelp]

I believe that it's a couple of weeks.

Thank you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jan 2022 ==

14 or 21 days sounds right - and don't panic about missing the deadline, especially if the date you receive it is well after the date on the letter. My impression is that the important thing is to reply reasonably promptly - so if you are going abroad for months, make some arrangements!

Okay thank you - I will try to calm down, this has just been hanging over me ever since it happened... self-inflicted though, so I only have myself to blame. You guys are helping with your replies and I really do appreciate it!