fare evaders

[shinkansen1966]

I know its off topic, but I am a little curious.

Would you suggest that is done based on the ToC (so all ATW services become the responsibility of the welsh government etc)? Or simply all services that are in wales?

Interesting point.

Scotland would be easier because there are fewer cross border services. And the ones that are, are generally InterCity type.

For Wales, the Welsh government would set and collect fares for all tickets between welsh stations. For destinations beyond Wales, the fares would be set by DfT with fares collected and then divided between the Welsh Assembly and DfT.

Service patterns for services wholly within Wales would be set by the Welsh assembly. For services between England and Wales, service could be set in agreement between DfT and Welsh Assembly.

As a single, seperate (possibly private) entity, all InterCity services would be outside the remit of Welsh assembly.

 

[yorkie]

I am sorry old chap but I must disagree.

You are not disagreeing with me, so no need to apologise I'm just saying what the situation is, and quoting from a TOC with a comprehensive page about PFs that dispels the myth.
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We all know that given half a chance a number of travellers will buy an off peak return in the hope of using it before it is available.

Correct action for an off peak ticket being held at a time that is not valid is an excess to the appropriate fare, not a PF.

That together with deliberate ticketless travel was the reason for the PF arrangement.
Passengers have to take some personal responsibility for their actions.

Correct action for deliberate ticketless travel is a prosecution, not a PF.

PFs are actually a way of letting off dodgers by charging them a fare that is higher than they'd normally pay.

 

[Lampshade]

PFs are actually a way of letting off dodgers by charging them a fare that is higher than they'd normally pay...

...which if someone has got away with not paying a £7 fare for six days of the week and gets chinged for a £20 PF on one day isn't exactly an effective deterrent.

 

[jon0844]

Did I read that TfL is to increase its penalty fare to £80?

Where does that leave everywhere else, still set at £20?

(TfL does allow you to get 50% off it paid within 14 days I believe)

 

[AlterEgo]

...which if someone has got away with not paying a £7 fare for six days of the week and gets chinged for a £20 PF on one day isn't exactly an effective deterrent.

You're starting a debate about Penalty Fares....!

FWIW, I do not believe they are a deterrent to ticketless travel as they are inherently flawed, no matter how well-intentioned. Persistent offenders will always be found out in the end. However, it is a shame that PFs are often given to the naive or unwary.

 

[Old Timer]

...There is a difference between a legitimate genuine passenger who has bought a ticket but has forgotten a railcard or something, and someone who deliberately tries to travel without a ticket with a specific intention to not pay.
Now, you may disagree, may say the consequence should be the same, whatever. But there is a very clear difference.

I go to the supermarket and forget to bring my double points voucher. Do you think the supermarket will say, "oh no worries, old chap have double points anyway" ??

The Railway is not the Aunt Sally to passengers who do not organise themselves properly.

Yes we all forget things at times, that is inevitable, but why is there this perception that somehow the Railway - and only the Railway - has to bend over backwards no matter how unreasonably, when any other organisation would not be expected to ?

Would an airline let you fly if you forgot your passport. Would you expect British Airways to let you fly if you turned up without your ticket having left it at home? Would you expect National Express to do similar.

Oh and should I ever go to Alton Towers I should arrive and announce that I forgot my two for one voucher and expect them to honour this ?

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Just as councils do with parking fines.

[offtopicslightly]
How I enjoy hearing people using that common misconception that parking fines top up a councils income...I'll have you know that a few authority's I know have their parking departments running at a massive loss. Explain that?
[/offtopicslightly]

 

[WelshBluebird]

I go to the supermarket and forget to bring my double points voucher. Do you think the supermarket will say, "oh no worries, old chap have double points anyway" ??

The Railway is not the Aunt Sally to passengers who do not organise themselves properly.

Yes we all forget things at times, that is inevitable, but why is there this perception that somehow the Railway - and only the Railway - has to bend over backwards no matter how unreasonably, when any other organisation would not be expected to ?

Would an airline let you fly if you forgot your passport. Would you expect British Airways to let you fly if you turned up without your ticket having left it at home? Would you expect National Express to do similar.

Oh and should I ever go to Alton Towers I should arrive and announce that I forgot my two for one voucher and expect them to honour this ?

Of course, none of those examples are like for like comparisons.
We are talking about essentially punishments here. Surely "punishments" should take into account the reason? Indeed, we already do it to some extend with season tickets as you are allowed to forget it, pay the fare, and the first twice you do that you can then get a refund on the fair. I don't see why we couldn't do someone with railcards and the like.

Oh, and you are talking about supermarkets. If you forget your clubcard, Tesco will let you add the points onto your account at a later date. Similar type of thing.

 

[WelshBluebird]

We are not talking about punishments.

We essentially are.
Maybe punishment is the wrong word. But having to paying a penalty fare (which means paying more), or being taken to court, it is essentially saying "you have done wrong".

The passenger clearly agrees that they will always travel with their Railcard as their side of the agreement. When first introduced it was soon a case of "I forgot it"when they never had one and someone else had bought them the ticket.

Of course, but we make exceptions for season tickets (allowing them to claim back the money) so why not with railcards?
And why should those who don't abuse the system suffer because of the ones who do?

The ticket is only valid with the card, the passenger accepts that freely. If they do not then they need not use the card.

Of course, but as I said above, we make exceptions for season tickets, so why not railcards?

The Tesco analogy is very apt because it demonstrates that they will not add the points on until you return with the card and the receipt.

So surely the railway equivalent would be what is done with season tickets? Giving a refund if the person goes to a ticket office and produces a railcard (that would have been in date when the journey was made).

 

[Old Timer]

We essentially are.
Maybe punishment is the wrong word. But having to paying a penalty fare (which means paying more), or being taken to court, it is essentially saying "you have done wrong".



Of course, but we make exceptions for season tickets (allowing them to claim back the money) so why not with railcards?
And why should those who don't abuse the system suffer because of the ones who do?



Of course, but as I said above, we make exceptions for season tickets, so why not railcards?



So surely the railway equivalent would be what is done with season tickets? Giving a refund if the person goes to a ticket office and produces a railcard (that would have been in date when the journey was made).

There is nothing to stop a person making an approach to the TOC and asking for favourable consideration to be given to a claim.

However I would be interested to see if you feel similar arrangements should be applied in other walks of life where a document or some form of entitlement is not produced at the time but the person should be allowed to benefit as if they had one ?

For example some loyalty/rewards schemes will never permit post use claims to be made, neither will they offer any reduction or special facility without the physical card on the desk.

Maybe you could give some examples because as I said earlier, the Railways for some strange reason have a very perverse logic applied to them that would not even be suggested elsewhere. Why is this ?

 

[WelshBluebird]

There is nothing to stop a person making an approach to the TOC and asking for favourable consideration to be given to a claim.

But there is no official scheme for it.
As I asked, the railways do it for season tickets. So why not for other things?

However I would be interested to see if you feel similar arrangements should be applied in other walks of life where a document or some form of entitlement is not produced at the time but the person should be allowed to benefit as if they had one ?

It depends on the circumstance.

For example some loyalty/rewards schemes will never permit post use claims to be made, neither will they offer any reduction or special facility without the physical card on the desk.

But some / many will.

Maybe you could give some examples because as I said earlier, the Railways for some strange reason have a very perverse logic applied to them that would not even be suggested elsewhere. Why is this ?

As I already said, supermarket loyalty schemes allow points to be added at a later date if you forget the card. The railways already allow you to claim back a refund on the fare you have to pay if you forget your season ticket. There are numerous examples of such things.

Of course, all of this has gone off the point. There is a massive difference between the person who accidentally forgets a railcard, or forgets a reservation (but is travelling on the right train) and someone who intentionally goes out to defraud the railways by purposely not paying (and by specifically avoiding paying by doing things like hiding in the toilets or whatever).

 

[RJ]

This, used widely elsewhere, is a much better option than barriers in my opinion. But, to work effectively, you need ticket issuing facilities at all stations, which we are a long way from in this country.

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Because:

1. they reject valid tickets - not occasionally, but frequently. You than have the hassle of getting someone to let you through, sometimes treating you almost as a fare evader because the machine has rejected the ticket.

2. they retain tickets which are valid for continuation of your journey so you have the hassle of getting someone to retrieve it for you.

3. they do not accept many types of ticket - rovers, rangers, PTE tickets, print at home etc.

All three of which are easily avoided by seeing the person who mans the barriers. Moaning about having to do this either makes you a drama queen, or means that a few extra seconds having to wait makes you flustered in which case, you should probably be on an earlier train.

I genuinely don't think that they so much of a hindrance that they should be scrapped.
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...which if someone has got away with not paying a £7 fare for six days of the week and gets chinged for a £20 PF on one day isn't exactly an effective deterrent.

Well, on my first three days of revenue duty, the same person came before without a ticket. The first time, they got a £20 PF and a warning. The second time, they got the same and another warning. The third time, they got reported (despite pleading relentlessly for a PF), taken to court and prosecuted. Costing them a cool few hundred £s and a nice criminal record. Haven't seen that person since so I presume they now buy a ticket.

It works if it's enforced effectively.

 

[Oswyntail]

....
However I would be interested to see if you feel similar arrangements should be applied in other walks of life where a document or some form of entitlement is not produced at the time but the person should be allowed to benefit as if they had one ?...

IIRC, you are allowed a period of a few days in which to produce a driving licence if requested by the police, and allowed to drive off.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

IIRC, you are allowed a period of a few days in which to produce a driving licence if requested by the police, and allowed to drive off.

You are, it is called a producer. However it works for the police as they have the means and ways of finding out who people are which are not available to the railways. This mean that if someone fails to profit their documents they can be arrested as the police will know who they are anyway.


---
- Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Oswyntail]

You are, it is called a producer. However it works for the police as they have the means and ways of finding out who people are which are not available to the railways. This mean that if someone fails to profit their documents they can be arrested as the police will know who they are anyway. ...

Yep - so why not have a similar system for the railways (and others) where initial ID (such as a passport) can be used to back up the process.

 

[strange6]

We had a fare evader on the 13:15 Blackburn - Blackpool North today. He tried to explain to the guard that he couldn't understand English yet was caught reading an English newspaper. Even after that he played dumb, so the police were contacted and were there to greet him at Preston. I bet this goes on a lot these days.

 

[Lampshade]

Problem there is that Blackburn can't be reasonably barriered without extensive remodelling - the ticket office is on the platform.

 

[185]

.... couldn't understand English yet was caught reading an English newspaper..

The Sun, Star and anything owned by *urdoch does not require knowing any English

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Problem there is that Blackburn can't be reasonably barriered without extensive remodelling - the ticket office is on the platform.

Yep, one of many, many errors involved in the 2000 rebuilding. The subway between the platforms also connects the cinema / bowling alley with town, so no hope of gating there and moving the booking office.

 

[Phil6219]

I'm not a huge fan of barriers, I just prefer RPIs manning the entrances and exits. I like them because they cut down on fare evasion (but not cut it out outright) however I dislike them because they slow the flow of traffic down and also it becomes a pain to gain access to the platform to help with bags, see friends off or in my case to shoot video.

I want to make it clear I always have a valid ticket for my journey however my biggest peeve is a total like of RPIs or Guards checking tickets on lightly loaded services (with sufficient space between stations). Just the other day two guys boarded the same train as me and bailed out before the guard got around to checking tickets (they bailed at Newton Le-Willows after boarding at Warrington) and yet there were only 6 other people on board. Granted they may have had a valid ticket but if they hadn't they would have made the journey for free.

Just like when I was younger I would go to the airport every Sunday, the ticket office would be closed so I would buy on board, only to go the whole way without actually having the guard come around. Usually I would end up buying my return ticket around two stops from the end of my return journey.

The Metrolink tram system is the same, I spend £2.20 on a return (a single is only ten pence cheaper but that's another discussion right there) and do not get checked at any point in my journey. If this happened once or twice a month I would understand but I've been making the same journeys almost daily for weeks. It annoys me that shedloads of chavs and scroats board (I'll let you guess where) without paying and make free journeys all the time. I probably would have saved more money if I never bought a ticket and simply paid the fine whenever I'd be caught (and going by this that would be once a month). Their RPI's (or Community Safety Officers I think they call them now) only hit the City Centre and then only during Rush Hour.

Phil

 

[WestCoast]

The Metrolink tram system is the same, I spend £2.20 on a return (a single is only ten pence cheaper but that's another discussion right there) and do not get checked at any point in my journey. If this happened once or twice a month I would understand but I've been making the same journeys almost daily for weeks. It annoys me that shedloads of chavs and scroats board (I'll let you guess where) without paying and make free journeys all the time. I probably would have saved more money if I never bought a ticket and simply paid the fine whenever I'd be caught (and going by this that would be once a month). Their RPI's (or Community Safety Officers I think they call them now) only hit the City Centre and then only during Rush Hour.

That's because the Metrolink is designed to be a 'random inspections' system, it's based on the honour system which is very popular in certain countries. I've seen Metrolink inspectors outside the city centre many times. The 'Standard Fare' is up to £100 for no ticket held, and they do prosecute I believe in certain cases (most likely for persistent evaders).

 

[sheff1]

All three of which are easily avoided by seeing the person who mans the barriers. Moaning about having to do this either makes you a drama queen, or means that a few extra seconds having to wait makes you flustered in which case, you should probably be on an earlier train.

So, you ask a question and when I give you an answer you say I am moaning, insult me and offer a solution which has no relevance in the context of the question you asked.


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Would you expect British Airways to let you fly if you turned up without your ticket having left it at home? Would you expect National Express to do similar.

Yes x 2, and they do.

Though I do not know why you are asking the question as, has been pointed out many times before, air and coach travel operate in completely different ways to rail travel (in the UK at least).

 

[junglejames]

All stations should have barriers. The only people who will object are fare evaders.

Incorrect. Totally incorrect. Different people have different reasons for not wanting barriers. Not all of them to do with fare dodging.
But thanks for calling me a fare dodger. Its very kind of you. A thief is probably the worst thing i have been called. You will forever be in my heart for saying such lovely things about me.
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Some TOCs have actually contributed to the growth of fare evasion by selling reduced rate tickets on-board,

LOL. There is the other way of looking at it. That they are trying to keep railways accessible and more passenger friendly. Late arriving at a station? Long wait at the ticket office? No problem, buy your ticket onboard.
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Really?

If all stations were given ticket buying facilities* and barriers that would render ticket checks on trains redundant and that would see all trains being DOO. I don't think I need to tell you how many guards have posted complaints relating to DOO.

* Ticket buying facilities would require a ticket office staffed from first to last train at all stations as there is currently no form of ticket machine that is able to sell the full range of tickets available from the ticket office. This would be costly and if operators put up fares or cut back on services to fund this then paying passengers would object.

Can you just imagine some of the smaller stations needing a newly built ticket office and at least 2 or 3 members of staff on duty from 4am until 1am the next day?!! But of course, the fact 2 of us have mentioned this, automatically means there are 2 extra fare dodgers in the UK.
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Interesting then that the EU has chosen the UK model as the preferred option for Privatisations throughout the EU

I hope that isnt a way of saying our privatisation has been good?
Crikey, you can be a Tory without agreeing to every daft thing they have done.

 

[Lampshade]

Can you just imagine some of the smaller stations needing a newly built ticket office and at least 2 or 3 members of staff on duty from 4am until 1am the next day?!! But of course, the fact 2 of us have mentioned this, automatically means there are 2 extra fare dodgers in the UK.

3 actually

When OT suggested *every* station should be barriered, what about Salwick with its three trains per day? How about Middlewood, which is essentially a bus stop? What about Dove Holes, which only has a garden gate as an entry/exit point?

Unless OT is suggesting that expensive station buildings be constructed at these rural stations, complete with full time staffed ticket office and ticket gates, notwithstanding the fact that the cost of construction and provision of facilities at these stations will probably be higher than the total annual revenue from ticket sales, perhaps bi-annual revenue?

 

[Phil6219]

That's because the Metrolink is designed to be a 'random inspections' system, it's based on the honour system which is very popular in certain countries. I've seen Metrolink inspectors outside the city centre many times. The 'Standard Fare' is up to £100 for no ticket held, and they do prosecute I believe in certain cases (most likely for persistent evaders).

Fair enough, I do believe they only prosecute the repeat offenders. My point is that it is extremely irritating to pay for a ticket, not have it checked and see others getting on without tickets and getting away with it.

As for the recent posts, I think you folks are taking it a little too far (or misinterpreting) what OT has said. It would be extremely unfeasible to install a booking office, ticket machine and barriers at all the stations across the network let alone man them. (Clifton also springs to mind with 2 trains per day, as well as Denton). Perhaps installing a "Permit to Travel" machine like the one at Acton Bridge would make more sense, I think a permit costs 20 pence and proves to the guard that you at least made an attempt at getting a ticket. I believe the 20p is refunded in the ticket price (though I am just guessing).

Are there any other Permit to Travel machines out there? I only know of the one at ACB.

Phil

 

[Lampshade]

Perhaps installing a "Permit to Travel" machine like the one at Acton Bridge would make more sense, I think a permit costs 20 pence and proves to the guard that you at least made an attempt at getting a ticket. I believe the 20p is refunded in the ticket price (though I am just guessing).

Not misinterpreting, just pointing out the absurdity of staffing and barriering every station. I agree with Permit to Travel being a nationwide thing though.

Are there any other Permit to Travel machines out there? I only know of the one at ACB.

One at Winsford, Lichfield Trent Valley, Rugeley Trent Valley, most LM stations actually.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Unless you are a major shareholder of one of the TOC's how can anyone say that the privatisation model in this country is successful ? The railway network has become disjointed, ticketing (as proven on here) is a complete farce, the service and pricing is designed to make the public travel when it is convenient for the train companies and not the other way round and those of us who actually pay taxes subdisidise this ramshackle mish mash to a far greater extent than we ever did for the old nationalised system (even taking in to consideration inflation). - and to boot we have a level of petty officialdom that would like to shoot people on sight for minor ticketing misdemeanours. Ask your average long suffering commuter who they think are the real villains of the piece and I don't think fare evaders would figure too highly.

 

[Minilad]

Maybe Sports clubs should use the 'customer service friendly' model the railway uses.
Lets everyone through the turnstiles and then pass through the crowd for the entrance money during the game.
Those turnstiles really do hold you up when you are trying to get in the ground

 

[DaveNewcastle]

When OT suggested *every* station should be barriered, what about Salwick with its three trains per day? How about Middlewood, which is essentially a bus stop? What about Dove Holes, which only has a garden gate as an entry/exit point?

I resisted commenting at that point; but now that you have done so, I must confess that my thoughts immediately turned to those lines with a dense pattern of stops which appear in rural areas which are not shared with long distance traffic: the Welsh Valleys, Lancashire, Cambrian line and much of the territory served by Northern Rail and ScotRail. Corrour Station came to mind immediately, which has no road access to it. And no staff. Ever.

Clearly, a 'one size fits all' solution is innapropriate to the current mix of our network.

 

[WelshBluebird]

As for the recent posts, I think you folks are taking it a little too far (or misinterpreting) what OT has said. It would be extremely unfeasible to install a booking office, ticket machine and barriers at all the stations across the network let alone man them.

I don't think I am misinterpreting what was said at all.
He barriers should be used at all stations, even unmanned ones.
Obviously, that is totally unworkable.