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fare evaders

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Old Timer

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Does the same apply to people who object to random 'stop and search'? That's a big problem with society these days - if you object to further oppression and state controlling them you're automatically guilty.
Completely irrelevant, and a silly statement.

Barriers - which incidentally existed quite happilly for over 150 years - protect revenue, and deter/prevent access to undesirables and ne'er do wells.

If you find a problem with that then I suggest you have other issues to deal with.

I for one find this anti-barrier attitude very annoying. It is (was) my Industry and I object strongly to people whose whole attitude is to work against the ability of the Railway to protect its revenue and maintain its security.

It may have escaped your attention but since the removal of barriers, and the expansion of these ridiculous "customer friendly" charades that the TOCs embark upon, fare evasion has developed to an unprecedented state and some train services at night become the haunt of those whose presence in any public situation would be both undesirable and dangerous.
 
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sonic2009

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Yes but in some cases TOC's who big up about renevue and all, don't do enough to Barrier Big Stations at Certain Times!

Can name a few :

Birmingham New Street after 7pm
London Paddington after 8pm
Reading after 9pm
Cardiff Central after 8pm

the list can go on.
 

Old Timer

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Oh I agree totally.

Some TOCs have actually contributed to the growth of fare evasion by selling reduced rate tickets on-board, by not manning stations properly, by not taking effective action against fare evaders, and by defending this whole ridiculous position in the name of "customer service".
 

WestCoast

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All stations should have barriers. The only people who will object are fare evaders.

I am in two minds about barriers, both manual and automatic. On the one hand, I believe they prevent the opportunist dodger. Additionally, they have security benefits and can also help with channelling passengers in a certain direction. In principle, they are a very sensible idea.

However, they won't stop the determined fare dodger as they can only check that a passenger has a ticket valid at that station. For example at Leeds, passengers can buy singles to Burley Park and then access the London service. Passengers can use child tickets and railcard tickets, when they are not entitled to use them (I know discounted tickets can be rejected, but this isn't always done). Passengers can sneak behind people (some barriers are slow). Passengers can still board trains they are not entitled to use.

This doesn't apply when staff manual inspect a certain train, for example Virgin Trains at Euston. However, this isn't often practical for the TOC.

What I am trying to say is they are meerly part of the solution, they are not a substitute for onboard ticket examinations.

It's interesting to look at other countries. DB has a full open-station policy; auto-barriers don't exist and on-station inspections are extremely rare. Instead, there is a penalty fare for regional trains and trains are often double or triple manned for thorough inspections to take place. Security staff assist conductors at night.
 
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Old Timer

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I am in two minds about barriers, both manual and automatic. On the one hand, I believe they prevent the opportunist dodger. Additionally, they have security benefits and can also help with channelling passengers in a certain direction. In principle, they are a very sensible idea.

However, they won't stop the determined fare dodger as they can only check that a passenger has a ticket valid at that station. For example at Leeds, passengers can buy singles to Burley Park and then access the London service. Passengers can use child tickets and railcard tickets, when they are not entitled to use them (I know discounted tickets can be rejected, but this isn't always done). Passengers can sneak behind people (some barriers are slow). Passengers can still board trains they are not entitled to use.

This doesn't apply when staff manual inspect a certain train, for example Virgin Trains at Euston. However, this isn't often practical for the TOC.

What I am trying to say is they are meerly part of the solution, they are not a substitute for onboard ticket examinations.

It's interesting to look at other countries. DB has a full open-station policy; auto-barriers don't exist and on-station inspections are extremely rare. Instead, there is a penalty fare for regional trains and trains are often double or triple manned for thorough inspections to take place. Security staff assist conductors at night.
Barriers form part of a system, which includes proper on train examination and a strict prosecution policy - none of this "customer friendly" crap which disguises a lack of backbone.

With regards to the European experience, we have totally different cultures. In the UK we have a poor culture where personal greed and self service over-ride any consideration of others. We have a sub-culture which is intolerant of decent standards and respect for authority.

Unlike Europe, and as can be seen by reading through some of the questions asked on this forum, we have a culture where peope, want everything for as little as possible and cheap prices but an unwillingness to comply with the terms and conditions when these do not suit.

As I said totally different to most European Countries, where such attitudes are in the very small minority.
 

Daimler

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Barriers form part of a system, which includes proper on train examination and a strict prosecution policy - none of this "customer friendly" crap which disguises a lack of backbone.

With regards to the European experience, we have totally different cultures. In the UK we have a poor culture where personal greed and self service over-ride any consideration of others. We have a sub-culture which is intolerant of decent standards and respect for authority.

Unlike Europe, and as can be seen by reading through some of the questions asked on this forum, we have a culture where peope, want everything for as little as possible and cheap prices but an unwillingness to comply with the terms and conditions when these do not suit.

As I said totally different to most European Countries, where such attitudes are in the very small minority.

This certainly isn't the case on the Paris Métro - 'barrier jumping' seems to be quite de rigueur in the French capital.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Barriers form part of a system, which includes proper on train examination and a strict prosecution policy - none of this "customer friendly" crap which disguises a lack of backbone.

With regards to the European experience, we have totally different cultures. In the UK we have a poor culture where personal greed and self service over-ride any consideration of others. We have a sub-culture which is intolerant of decent standards and respect for authority.

Old Timer, we can always rely on you to give a thoughtful and considered comment on any railway-based matter. You certainly have my backing for your views on this matter.
 

WillPS

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Old Timer - I like open stations since they allow me to accompany my girlfriend on to the train, helping her with any bags she may have across the footbridge. I am not a fare dodger.

At stations like, say Glasgow Central or the London Terminals, where there are no steps between the gateline and the platform, I do not mind there being a properly manned barrier.
 

Intermodal

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Old Timer - I like open stations since they allow me to accompany my girlfriend on to the train, helping her with any bags she may have across the footbridge. I am not a fare dodger.

At stations like, say Glasgow Central or the London Terminals, where there are no steps between the gateline and the platform, I do not mind there being a properly manned barrier.

A station which is a compulsory ticket area must allow people through the barriers such as enthusiasts or people helping others with bags. This may be in form of a platform ticket, or if they are not available, some other means (such as just letting you though).
 

newbie babs

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Where would you go for a platform ticket, I was at Lincoln and someone was trying to get through to help with luggage for their friend and they were not allowed past the barriers.

If you had to queue at the the normal ticket office I wish you all the best at Sheffield, because all ticket machines and those selling tickets always have queues.

I often go and sit on platform 1 in my lunch time just to relax and read, I would not want to queue up first as my lunchtime would be over.
 

northwichcat

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All stations should have barriers. The only people who will object are fare evaders.

Really?

If all stations were given ticket buying facilities* and barriers that would render ticket checks on trains redundant and that would see all trains being DOO. I don't think I need to tell you how many guards have posted complaints relating to DOO.

* Ticket buying facilities would require a ticket office staffed from first to last train at all stations as there is currently no form of ticket machine that is able to sell the full range of tickets available from the ticket office. This would be costly and if operators put up fares or cut back on services to fund this then paying passengers would object.
 

Minilad

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It wasn't so long ago that most stations had staffed ticket barriers. You couldn't even get on or off a Cross City station without showing some sort of ticket. You still got a lot of ticket checks on board trains. Didn't hear any complaints about barriers then.
 

northwichcat

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It wasn't so long ago that most stations had staffed ticket barriers. You couldn't even get on or off a Cross City station without showing some sort of ticket. You still got a lot of ticket checks on board trains. Didn't hear any complaints about barriers then.

Are you referring to the BR barriers with a ticket inspector in a wooden hut? Those were only at major stations not most stations, smaller stations quite often had a travelling team of ticket inspectors who could be at one station one day and another the next. They also involved someone who actually knew the T&Cs of tickets inspecting them not some machine that might be wrongly programmed or a malfunctioning G4S person.
 

Minilad

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Are you referring to the BR barriers with a ticket inspector in a wooden hut? Those were only at major stations not most stations, smaller stations quite often had a travelling team of ticket inspectors who could be at one station one day and another the next. They also involved someone who actually knew the T&Cs of tickets inspecting them not some machine that might be wrongly programmed or a malfunctioning G4S person.

Yep those are the ones. Back in the good old days ;)
 

Max

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I have moved a few posts over to the Sheffield barriers thread, see here.
 

Old Timer

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Really?

If all stations were given ticket buying facilities* and barriers that would render ticket checks on trains redundant and that would see all trains being DOO. I don't think I need to tell you how many guards have posted complaints relating to DOO.
No because there are people who will still buy say a Southend V to say Rochford, and a Stratford to Liverpool St ticket (season ticket in many cases) and travel throughout.

This happened back in BR days, particularly on the LTS where East Ham was the popular short origin station.

There are also those who will buy a platform ticket to gain access to the station

Thus on train inspection on longer distances is an absolute must. Suburban services require slightly different techniques, such as the route lockdown system I initiated, and specialised plain clothes operations of which I will say no more.
 

northwichcat

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No because there are people who will still buy say a Southend V to say Rochford, and a Stratford to Liverpool St ticket (season ticket in many cases) and travel throughout.

This happened back in BR days, particularly on the LTS where East Ham was the popular short origin station.

There are also those who will buy a platform ticket to gain access to the station

Thus on train inspection on longer distances is an absolute must. Suburban services require slightly different techniques, such as the route lockdown system I initiated, and specialised plain clothes operations of which I will say no more.

You said there should be ticket barriers at ALL stations in your previous post, so the entire network would be similar to London Underground. That would mean the passenger has to pass through a ticket barrier at both their entry and exit station, which ever stations they use, so for instance someone with a London Bridge platform ticket only would not be able to exit Greenwich station without first purchasing a new ticket. So if you're now arguing that on board ticket checks at also required is the same required on London Underground?
 

exile

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Barrier in + Barrier Out + random ticket checks with penalty fare
Or Machines/ticket office at each station + Ticket check between every 2 stations with higher fare for on-train tickets (or discount for buying at station)
Or unstaffed station + ticket checks between every 2 stations + machines on train

- together with a simplified zonal ticketing system for all local journeys
 

Old Timer

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You said there should be ticket barriers at ALL stations in your previous post, so the entire network would be similar to London Underground. That would mean the passenger has to pass through a ticket barrier at both their entry and exit station, which ever stations they use, so for instance someone with a London Bridge platform ticket only would not be able to exit Greenwich station without first purchasing a new ticket. So if you're now arguing that on board ticket checks at also required is the same required on London Underground?
London Underground have a very active revenue protection unit, supported by the BT Police.

My point was, I thought, quite simple.

A ticket is needed to pass through the entry and exit barriers. Someone travelling on a platform ticket would thus not get anywhere, because the system would not let them exit.

That leaves the evaders who operate on "short journey" evasion, as in the Southend V to Liverpool St scenario. In this case they buy a Southend V to Rochford and a Straford to Liverpool St. They have tickets which would let them enter and more importantly exit, yet the have not paid the intermediate fare.

A system use in many South American cities and elsewhere in the World is one where there is a flat fare throughout the whole system. A ticket is bought from the booking office and is then taken by the barrier as you enter the system. You thus pay each time you enter the system. Such systems make large sums of money such that every station is manned by both station and security staff, fare evasion though is no-existent because you have to pay to get into the system.

Once inside you can travel anywhere you want, to use a UK example, Croydon to St Albans would be the same price as London Bridge to Blackfriars. These systems however are different from ours in that they actually make money and incredibly busy.

It would take an enormous change of approach in the UK and would require an incredible amount of Political courage - the sort that this Political system would never reward but would only destroy the person proposing it through the medium of others using it for cynical Political positioning purposes, similar to what happened after Clapham, Southall, Ladbroke Grove, Hatfield, Potters Bar.
 

xtradj

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you should NEVER tell tales..

however it is wrong was he/she was doing.. but they will get caught eventually so don't worry
 

Mike395

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you should NEVER tell tales..

however it is wrong was he/she was doing.. but they will get caught eventually so don't worry

Really? So if you see someone burgling a house, you wouldnt call 999 on the logic that they'd get caught eventually?

People who fare evade put up fares for everyone else - surely it's our right to tell guards if we suspect fare evasion is taking place?
 

Seacook

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All stations should have barriers. The only people who will object are fare evaders.

Depends on the barrier. I have no problems with showing my ticket to a human being, but automatic barriers are a nuisance - my PTE season ticket will not work. Even if did, it would still cause problems: I would not like to risk the ticket not being returned; and while it is currently protected in a wallet, the wear and tear would not be acceptable (it's an annual ticket).

With London Midland intent on cutting station staff in my area the idea is not feasible.
 

jon0844

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People who buy tickets for each end could be stopped if their ticket for exit hadn't been marked as having gone through a barrier at the other origin station.

That would mean ticket extensions would need to be passed manually, showing the other ticket to someone but I would accept that to know people aren't so easily getting away with fraud.

Clearly you need gates everywhere, or a ticket to be marked/validated upon entry. A machine could mark the time/location so would also help staff for subsequent investigations.
 

district

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I sent an email to SET showing my displeasure at how the barriers at Hastings station were being left open and unmanned at long periods of time.

I got the following reply:

[FONT=&quot]Dear Mr [They got my name wrong]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thank you for your website comment which we received on 10 August.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
I understand that you have noticed that the ticket barriers at Hastings station are not always manned when you pass through. This has meant that you have witnessed fare evaders using Hastings station. I realise that as a paying passenger how frustrating this must be for you.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]During Peak times we expect all ticket barrier to be manned by a member of staff. Having said this, it may not always be possible due staff illness, or staff displacement. If we are not able to man the barriers, we would have to keep the barriers open. This is because when the barriers are shut we must have a member of staff on the gate to allow passengers with lots of luggage or passengers in wheelchair's to pass through the barriers.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]However, I have brought your comments to the attention of the Mrs [Station Manager], who is the Station Manager of Hastings station. She will try to ensure that the staff at Hastings are manning the barriers more often. I therefore, hope you will notice more staff manning the barriers at Hastings station.[/FONT]

You have also mentioned that you have not seen enough ticket checks or Revenue Protection staff. Most of our passengers are honest and always have a valid ticket. Unfortunately, there are some who don’t (like those you mentioned) and it is these people who are costing us a lot of money. We are determined that you will not subsidise these people, and I am sorry that you don't appear to have seen our RPO's on the services and stations you use.

I should reassure you that we do have RPO's who work late shifts. They tend to be based at specific areas where we have been informed that there are real problems. Unfortunately, we only have a limited number of staff to carry out these duties.

However, I do agree that your experience is indeed cause for concern. Therfore, I have passed these details to our Revenue Protection Manager. Who will ensure that more ticket checks are put in place on your line and I hope you notice an improvement on this situation soon.
Once again, please accept my apologies for any inconvenience that you have been caused and thank you for taking the time to contact us.

[FONT=&quot]Yours sincerely[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][Joe Bloggs]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Customer Relations Officer[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Southeastern [/FONT]


Oh, and for the record, I love ticket barriers which in my opinion form part of a 3 piece plan for revenue protection, which also includes guards checking tickets if practical and revenue protection inspectors/officers as well.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Hastings was the station where the bloke on the gateline looked at my PRIV ticket like it was an alien. Had I not explained what it was I doubt I'd have got through!
 
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It wasn't so long ago that most stations had staffed ticket barriers. You couldn't even get on or off a Cross City station without showing some sort of ticket. You still got a lot of ticket checks on board trains. Didn't hear any complaints about barriers then.

That's because ticket barriers now can reject valid tickets, and also because one person can enforce the rules of a third party. For instance, at KX ticket barriers, you'll have East Coast staff at Kings Cross enforcing the fare restriction of First Capital Connect.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
All stations should have barriers. The only people who will object are fare evaders.

I object to most ticket barriers on national rail.
 
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