Fare discrepancy for similar length journeys

[EUC]

My day trip to Brighton over the weekend got me thinking.

Travelling from West Hampstead Thameslink, the walk-up railcard-discounted, Super Off-Peak Day Return AP Maltese cross fare was £13.05, but from Stratford London an Off-Peak Day Return (there is no Super Off-Peak fare on that flow) costs £28.00.

From London Bridge, there is a Thameslink only Super Off-Peak Day Return priced at £11.65, so if you're travelling from Stratford, why wouldn't you just add £5.80 tube fare and pay £17.45? That's still a lot more than West Hampstead (for a shorter journey distance), but considerably cheaper than the through fare. Why is the trip so expensive from Stratford?

Incidentally, I had wanted to go to Southend-on-sea instead, but the fare put me off: there is only an Off-Peak Day Return, which from WHD costs £19.40 +via Pitsea, or the slower via Hackney Wick at £18.90.

The weather would have been nicer in Southend, but the 15 miles further to Brighton were cheaper, so I went there instead!

 

[Haywain]

Why is the trip so expensive from Stratford?

Because the cheaper fares apply to flows entirely on the Thameslink route. That means that, historically, the revenue is entirely "internal", not shared with other train operators. Such practices are by no means exclusive to Thameslink/GTR.

 

[ClivePage]

I expect that explanation is right - but of course with all services now either nationalised or mere franchises where the revenue goes to a central pool, such explanations make no logical sense. But if we were to complain I expect the response would be a large-scale rejig of the fares system in which most of us would be worse off.

I usually travel either from Luton (town) or Luton Airport Parkway depending on what's convenient at the time. For places in the London area one would expect that the fare from Luton which is a mile or so further north would either be more expensive than that from Parkway, or perhaps the same if the system could not be bothered to differentiate. In fact there are many trips where the fare from Luton is cheaper. Since in practice it seems that Luton tickets are always accepted at Parkway (though it doesn't seem to be documented easment) that's the fare we choose if it saves money. Not at all logical, just an accident of history.

 

[EUC]

Because the cheaper fares apply to flows entirely on the Thameslink route. That means that, historically, the revenue is entirely "internal", not shared with other train operators. Such practices are by no means exclusive to Thameslink/GTR.

Even though the ticket has a Maltese Cross and is Any Permitted (restriction code FB)? So in addition to direct Thameslink trains, it would also permit me to take

• the Overground to Clapham Junction, and then Southern services to East Croydon/Gatwick Airport, before changing for Brighton;
• or change to/from the Gatwick Express at Gatwick Airport (all GTR );
• or even take the Gatwick Express from Brighton to Victoria, followed by the Victoria Line to Kings Cross-St Pancras and Thameslink from there.

The latter strikes me as particularly bizarre, since the AP Off-Peak Day Return fare set by Southern is £24.95. The fare from West Hampstead seems to allow break of journey, so why wouldn't one just buy one of those at £13.05 just to make the Gatwick Express journey to and from Victoria?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I travelled from Colwyn bay to Betws y coed the other day and it was £11.60 return which surprised me as I usually travel from Llandudno and the distance is pretty much the same but the price is only £7.70. Quite a big difference on such a short journey.

 

[JonathanH]

The fare from West Hampstead seems to allow break of journey, so why wouldn't one just buy one of those at £13.05 just to make the Gatwick Express journey to and from Victoria?

Indeed, although it is only available at the weekend. The fares from cluster Q060 to Thameslink destinations are very flexible.

Travelling from West Hampstead Thameslink, the walk-up railcard-discounted, Super Off-Peak Day Return AP Maltese cross fare was £13.05, but from Stratford London an Off-Peak Day Return (there is no Super Off-Peak fare on that flow) costs £28.00.

Changing the origin to Wanstead Park instead of West Hampstead Thameslink, the £13.05 ticket is valid via Stratford.

However, note that these weekend only super-off-peak tickets had a hefty increase of over 10% in the March fares revision. Super-off-peak fares elsewhere have been removed as part of Project Oval simplification.

 

[Hadders]

GTR has some particularly cheap tickets at weekends. The price differential between West Hampstead Thameslink and Southend/Brighton is much less on weekdays.

We need to be really careful what we wish for here. We'd all like the more expensive fares to be made cheaper but in reality, with The Treasury and DfT pulling the strings, Project Oval and a clamour to make railway ticketing 'simple' you just know the cheaper fares will end up being withdrawn....

 

[Haywain]

I expect that explanation is right - but of course with all services now either nationalised or mere franchises where the revenue goes to a central pool, such explanations make no logical sense.

It's an accident of history, that's all. Fare anomalies generally make no logical sense.

I usually travel either from Luton (town) or Luton Airport Parkway depending on what's convenient at the time. For places in the London area one would expect that the fare from Luton which is a mile or so further north would either be more expensive than that from Parkway, or perhaps the same if the system could not be bothered to differentiate. In fact there are many trips where the fare from Luton is cheaper.

Indeed, and there are some where the restrictions are different for the very same ticket type and destination.

it seems that Luton tickets are always accepted at Parkway (though it doesn't seem to be documented easment)

The only fares that wouldn't be accepted at Parkway to/from the south would be those which do not permit break of journey. No easement is required.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jun 2025 ==

The fare from West Hampstead seems to allow break of journey, so why wouldn't one just buy one of those at £13.05 just to make the Gatwick Express journey to and from Victoria?

Because one doesn't know that. It's the same principle as fare anomalies elsewhere.

 

[Watershed]

Notably, as of the March fares increase, GTR increased the weekend cost of many Super Off-Peak Day Return fares priced under the Southern rband. These are generally successors to the former 'PriceBuster' fares created by Connex South Central back in the early days of privatiation, which incidentally only tend to exist for travel towards London.

They have implemented this by adding data restrictions so that the former PriceBusters (ticket types PDR for returns or AM3 for Day Travelcards) are no longer possible for retailers to sell on weekends, and have introduced new weekend fares (ticket types AM2 and WTC respectively) at a higher price.

However, in a handful of cases the new weekend AM2/WTC fares are cheaper than the weekday PDR/AM3 fares, for example for Brighton to London. I imagine this is to limit the 'abstraction' that the cheaper "Thameslink only" fares perform, perhaps in readiness for their future abolition.

 

[Kilopylae]

Even though the ticket has a Maltese Cross and is Any Permitted (restriction code FB)? So in addition to direct Thameslink trains, it would also permit me to take

• the Overground to Clapham Junction, and then Southern services to East Croydon/Gatwick Airport, before changing for Brighton;
• or change to/from the Gatwick Express at Gatwick Airport (all GTR );
• or even take the Gatwick Express from Brighton to Victoria, followed by the Victoria Line to Kings Cross-St Pancras and Thameslink from there.

The latter strikes me as particularly bizarre, since the AP Off-Peak Day Return fare set by Southern is £24.95. The fare from West Hampstead seems to allow break of journey, so why wouldn't one just buy one of those at £13.05 just to make the Gatwick Express journey to and from Victoria?

GTR is all one operator, so Southern and Gatwick Express trains might as well be Thameslink from a revenue allocation perspective.

As for the Maltese cross, this thread here ◊ https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/caledonian-sleeper-ticket-question.22400/page-2 reports that TfL receives a fixed payment for Maltese cross tickets, so that would suggest that the cross doesn't affect Orcats (as it's handled through this fixed payment instead).

 

[Watershed]

GTR is all one operator, so Southern and Gatwick Express trains might as well be Thameslink from a revenue allocation perspective.

As for the Maltese cross, this thread here ◊ https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/caledonian-sleeper-ticket-question.22400/page-2 reports that TfL receives a fixed payment for Maltese cross tickets, so that would suggest that the cross doesn't affect Orcats (as it's handled through this fixed payment instead).

I would imagine it's a fixed payment for each Maltese cross ticket sold, rather than a static annual sum. I could be wrong though.

 

[TUC]

As ever with such queries, be careful what you wish for as resolving such discrepancies would likely result in the cheaper fares disappearing, not the opposite.

 

[drueberflug]

Because the cheaper fares apply to flows entirely on the Thameslink route. That means that, historically, the revenue is entirely "internal", not shared with other train operators. Such practices are by no means exclusive to Thameslink/GTR.

In contrast to this, when looking at the Anytime fares, Ely to Newark Northgate/Newark Castle via Grantham is a bit cheaper (20p) than Ely to Grantham.
There are a few other journeys via Grantham that are cheaper if booked to Newark-on-Trent, where the difference between the two in price is more severe.
Usually, the one priced by EMR tends to be more expensive than a similar one priced by LNER.

 

[Watershed]

In contrast to this, when looking at the Anytime fares, Ely to Newark Northgate/Newark Castle via Grantham is a bit cheaper (20p) than Ely to Grantham.
There are a few other journeys via Grantham that are cheaper if booked to Newark-on-Trent, where the difference between the two in price is more severe.
Usually, the one priced by EMR tends to be more expensive than a similar one priced by LNER.

Only if you're travelling one-way - it's a result of LNER having single leg pricing, whilst EMR do not. As soon as you make a return journey - and especially a day trip - the EMR fares look rather better again.