Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
"Bother" at football matches is actually rather unusual these days because it is well policed and the penalties are stiff. These people are much more likely to be the sort who live on sink estates and like nothing more than goading the police and anyone else.
Both jailed for 26 months, probably released on licence after 13 months. So a year and a month in prison for what? Absolutely nothing. Must be feeling absolutely wretched right now for that stupidity last week. But play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
was he the one bitten by the police dog and who was crying in the dock? Bet he is crying now! They clearly, clearly, felt there would be no comeback over this behaviour. I hope the crime was worth the time!
I'm getting a bit fed up with this correlation with football. There will be vastly more peace loving and tolerant people at football this weekend than racist rioting thugs
There are loads of factors at play, but boredom, conducive weather, and no football to attend or watch in the pub seem inescapably true.
It's like the fire triangle. You only need remove one side of the triangle and there's no fire. One side of the triangle is a cohort of low-wattage far right white men who engage in tribalism. Football has a problem with those people even if they are a minority and do not represent the 500,000 or so people who go to EFL games every weekend.
EFL starts Saturday, race riots done for the year.
You could say the same if it was raining last week too, because those riots also don't happen when people are getting rained on and don't have the energy to get lairy.
Reminds me a bit of Farage calling his MPs the "new kids on the block". Five MPs, five-piece boy band.
You can almost imagine Farage, Anderson, Tice and the "other two" doing a cover of "Hangin' Tough".
Another one for the "Now That's What I Call Right Wing" compilation album.
There are loads of factors at play, but boredom, conducive weather, and no football to attend or watch in the pub seem inescapably true.
It's like the fire triangle. You only need remove one side of the triangle and there's no fire. One side of the triangle is a cohort of low-wattage far right white men who engage in tribalism. Football has a problem with those people even if they are a minority and do not represent the 500,000 or so people who go to EFL games every weekend.
EFL starts Saturday, race riots done for the year.
You could say the same if it was raining last week too, because those riots also don't happen when people are getting rained on and don't have the energy to get lairy.
Not heard of any predicted disturbances tonight - it's raining in Bolton so I expect all quiet on the Western Front? What is the situation nationwide? have the thugs realised that posting events simply means 100's of counter-protesters turn up??
There are loads of factors at play, but boredom, conducive weather, and no football to attend or watch in the pub seem inescapably true.
It's like the fire triangle. You only need remove one side of the triangle and there's no fire. One side of the triangle is a cohort of low-wattage far right white men who engage in tribalism. Football has a problem with those people even if they are a minority and do not represent the 500,000 or so people who go to EFL games every weekend.
EFL starts Saturday, race riots done for the year.
You could say the same if it was raining last week too, because those riots also don't happen when people are getting rained on and don't have the energy to get lairy.
Did I miss the condemnations from EDL EFL (and Premier League) clubs reiterating that thugs are not welcome? Are grounds still 'segregated' to separate baying 'supporters' mobs wishing to spit at/ shout at/ abuse/ beat up 'the other lot' and/or police (being paid by who?) trying to keep them apart and 'escort' them from the ground at an 'appropriate time'.
What are rioters hoping to achieve? Lower immigration? Better integration? Cost-free destruction? A change in government? How likely are any of these to be achieved by such actions? The complexion of the cabinet and of Government ministers will not be affected, nor policies. These riots play to Keir Starmer's strength- he has been doing his bit to have anti-social folk dealt with for years. he knows how to do it, and as done it.
He has to practice some fancy footwork when it comes to the Middle East and Trumpism; rioters are scoring own goals; Kier is winning. His fans may turn on him at some stage, but he does have a huge lead at this stage of the season and he has the dressing room too.
was he the one bitten by the police dog and who was crying in the dock? Bet he is crying now! They clearly, clearly, felt there would be no comeback over this behaviour. I hope the crime was worth the time!
That won't be enough to stop them using a catchy hashtag that all the right wingers have latched on to. In fact, seeing it in a post is a great way to confirm their beliefs without having to look at earlier posts or replies for context.
It is the UK equivalent of DEI as the buzzword of the year.
Yet there were significant numbers of anti-fascist groups out last night (Hope Not Hate, Stand Up To Racism, Unite Against Fascism) - perhaps they're just not thugs?
Interesting to watch live coverage of the sentencing. Not sure how much of a deterrent it'll be for similar events in the future but fingers crossed it has at least some effect.
As you say, one can only hope, but I don't buy the view that these are long sentences, especially given that the actual prison time will be at most 50% minus time on remand. The guilty pleas are no mitigation in my view, as most if not all are captured on film. As for the defence briefs stating the defendants are ''truly sorry'' they should have added ''for themselves.''
One aspect of these violent disorders hardly mentioned on here is that only one non-English city or town has featured, that being Belfast, which almost alone had more trouble last night. The pictures of the mob, with many wrapped in the Union Jack, are so redolent of the Ulster Defence Association (the UDA) and others on that side of the divide during the Troubles. There are many associated with Unionist politics in Northern Ireland who've never accepted powersharing, particularly when the Nationalist side achieves parity, and this all plays into their hands. Add to that the emigration of many Belfast hardliners around the time of the Good Friday Agreement to N.W. England, particularly Greater Manchester, who've been involved in far right groups and general criminality ever since. I remember reading years ago that Bolton was a favourite place for them to reside.
No they don’t, certainly not as an organisation anyway. Although we certainly do have equivalent “anti-fascist” groups.
My point was that extremists of all denominations were prevented from engaging in violence by the sheer number of people who decided enough was enough and made their presence felt (peacefully).
Indeed, the danger here is that it's easy to arrest a few people to look tough and decisive, but that doesn't do anything to solve the underlying issues, injustices or inequalities in our society. Subsequently, this issue will just keep reappearing and 'normal people's' genuine concerns are just being brushed over. It's perfectly possibly to support legal immigration, but not illegal immigration which many people fail to understand the nuance of, so they just take the simple approach of labelling those people 'racist' or 'far right,' rather than actually taking time to understand the perfectly rational viewpoint. The working class is increasingly marginalised by the establishment and people are starting to realise both that, and that all the political parties are the same and are delivering zero benefit to the nation. They are failing our country.
This guy sums it up, eloquently and at length, although slightly over-dramatically at the start.
I agree. The riots are a distraction from the root causes - mass unsustainable migration (600k per year which should be more like 100k) that puts significant pressure on all public services, and disenfranchisement of regional poor.
Switzerland handles immigration well. Sustainable amounts of it, plus investment in public infrastructure like schools, hospitals, homes, rails, roads and tunnels, and settlements are distributed and there are no rich and poor areas. Nowhere feels unsafe. Britain, suffers the legacy of the class system with Victorian industrial housing areas, home county housing, London ghettos and rural grand housing. Everywhere in the country is too divided socially because of what Britain is. Violent people need to be arrested on both sides equally, but people are so distracted with the rioting and the 'far right' which in my opinion are criminals, layabouts and mischief makers rather than ideologically far right.
Even in America, they don't exist as an organisation. It's about as accurate as labelling the 'alt-right' as one. They're a decentralised movement made up of many autonomous groups and individuals that follow a loose ideology. It hit the mainstream during the Trump administration and seems to have largely faded into the background now the Democrats are in office.
However, the idea Antifa are militant goons dressing in black and smashing up things is largely fictional; a boogeyman spread by Fox News.
. Violent people need to be arrested on both sides equally, but people are so distracted with the rioting and the 'far right' which in my opinion are criminals, layabouts and mischief makers rather than ideologically far right.
I can't make any sense of this sentence. If the thugs terrorising our cities are not 'far right' but 'criminals, layabouts and mischief makers' who are those on the other side who equally need to be arrested?
Even in America, they don't exist as an organisation. It's about as accurate as labelling the 'alt-right' as one. They're a decentralised movement made up of many autonomous groups and individuals that follow a loose ideology. It hit the mainstream during the Trump administration and seems to have largely faded into the background now the Democrats are in office.
However, the idea Antifa are militant goons dressing in black and smashing up things is largely fictional; a boogeyman spread by Fox News.
I can't make any sense of this sentence. If the thugs terrorising our cities are not 'far right' but 'criminals, layabouts and mischief makers' who are those on the other side who equally need to be arrested?
The mobile phone footage I’ve seen would suggest that many of the rioters were the dregs of society who saw an opportunity to smash things up and steal stuff. That doesn’t mean that the riots weren’t instigated by the far right, nor that they were involved.
The mobile phone footage I’ve seen would suggest that many of the rioters were the dregs of society who saw an opportunity to smash things up and steal stuff. That doesn’t mean that the riots weren’t instigated by the far right, nor that they were involved.
No they don’t, certainly not as an organisation anyway. Although we certainly do have equivalent “anti-fascist” groups.
My point was that extremists of all denominations were prevented from engaging in violence by the sheer number of people who decided enough was enough and made their presence felt (peacefully).
You're joking right? I've never seen a bigger piece of tripe in my life. It makes the Daily Mail look moderate.
"Mein Fuhrer, Starmer"?
Bringing up the Huddersfield grooming gangs? (around 10:00)
The "National Socialist Noncey Labour Party"? (10:12)
His way of getting people to listen to him seems to be "I'm a historian so you can trust me, I know what I'm taking about, I don't like Hitler so I must be OK". With all those books about fascism in the background to make him look serious. Haha. Plenty of idiots in history had professional jobs.
Cherry-picking a small number of people from ethnic minorities in an effort to prove the riots weren't racist? Showing the Israel flag at a protest to prove the riots weren't racist?
Some sort of indication that the protesters only want to protect our children and keep our streets safe? What on earth is that supposed to mean?
This individual is a prime example of the "influencers" that are just contributing to the problem. He absolutely cannot be taken seriously. You aren't seriously telling me that you actually think this is a good video, right?
It is anti-Labour and anti-migrant propaganda, pure and simple.
I wonder if Starmer, as a lawyer, might want to consider issuing a take-down notice on this video. It seems to be on the verge of being libellous, particularly the "nonce" reference.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I agree. The riots are a distraction from the root causes - mass unsustainable migration (600k per year which should be more like 100k) that puts significant pressure on all public services, and disenfranchisement of regional poor.
To be quite honest I am sick and tired of people blaming migration for all of society's ills, when to my mind there are far more significant causes over the past 15 years (the credit crunch initially, Cameron/Osborne austerity as a reaction to the former, and later Covid and the war in Ukraine - plus perhaps the previous Tory government's inherent lack of concern about those less well off in society).
I'm getting a bit fed up with this correlation with football. There will be vastly more peace loving and tolerant people at football this weekend than racist rioting thugs, and there will be vast numbers of rioting thugs going nowhere near football grounds all season. There may be a crossover but it isn't anywhere near as big as you and others are making out.
Quite. If people want to experience real two tier policing they should be a part of an away fan contingent at a match in London or South Yorkshire.
I was pepper sprayed by a Met officer for the heinous crime of waiting for the rest of the crowd to disperse (so I could catch a train at South Bermondsey) rather than being frogmarched two miles from Millwall's ground to Canada Water station. VERY nearly missed the last train home because of that. I did lodge an official complaint which was seemingly ignored.
I was punched in the stomach by a South Yorkshire officer after I fell into him when somebody accidentally tripped me up. I was threatened with arrest when I asked him WTF he thought he was doing. Tbf to him he did apologise and I accepted but you could tell he was really on edge and itching for something to happen.
99% of the time policing at football is antagonistic and I strongly believe there would be less trouble if they simply weren't there. Almost everybody just want to have a good time watching the match and then going home.
Kinda makes you lose all respect for any kind of policing.
The latest thing is making false reports on the UK police website from abroad. Access from outside the UK is restricted and they've taken major offence at this - so are now recommending VPNs to bypass it.
I didn't even know you could file a report on a webchat, but these idiots are not only making false reports (and racist ones at that), but posting the screenshots online.
I wonder if they're resorting to this now they've realised that the likelihood of being able to riot and loot again is looking pretty slim.
Been there done it, still know that there's a fair few EDL types at the football and that's where they'll be this weekend instead of contributing to a critical mass of disorder in their town centres.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Not so much, but people coming out to defend their communities from street fascists and make a stand for a tolerant society are quite different from the EDL-esque thugs.
"All fighting is equally bad guys, please stop and kiss" is at best a luxury belief, and at worst a way of trying to equivocate the antagonist in a conflict. Was the Battle of Cable Street bad, or was it actually the watershed for the end of British fascism, and an important event in checking the far right in the run up to Britain's eventual involvement in WWII?
To be quite honest I am sick and tired of people blaming migration for all of society's ills, when to my mind there are far more significant causes over the past 15 years (the credit crunch initially, Cameron/Osborne austerity as a reaction to the former, and later Covid and the war in Ukraine - plus perhaps the previous Tory government's inherent lack of concern about those less well off in society).
About as much as I'm sick and tired of people who pretend that immigration (the quantity and the nature) is not having any negative effect on society, or if they are then those people affected must just put up with it. (Usual note - Yes, that does not give anyone an excuse to riot, cause damage, threaten people etc.). And yes, a certain amount of immigration no doubt has a positive effect on a country too.
However, immigration is not the only cause of society's ills either. As you point out, there are many strands of cause / blame (some you mention, others not). How much weight an individual puts on each of these is influenced by one's outlook on life and there is no one answer. There are also 'influencers' on both the right and the left, some more prominent and open, and some more insidious. It may well be that left wing influencers don't have such a resonating message?
Just commenting on the video in #532. Who is this ‘historian’? He doesn’t seem to give his name at the beginning (mine starts at 00.03) and I have not got the time to go watch the whole video. Has he got a record of respected peer-reviewed works and a respectable reputation in one branch or other of the history industry? Or is he just someone who has read a lot of books and then cherry-picked such facts as he wants, and considers that makes him a historian? The fact that he is putting things out on Tic-toc, or so it appears, makes one doubt the depth and breadth of his knowledge.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
www.independent.co.uk
www.bbc.co.uk
