Far-right protests

[RT4038]

Why does "immigrant" factor into this at all? Professionals of any origin are more able to provide educational support to their children.

That said, we have (in theory at least) equality of opportunity. If there's disparity in outcomes then the blame likely lies closer to home.

No, we don't have really have equality of opportunity, even in theory let alone practice.

So nothing new then. We've all just endured 14 years of a government where 3 out of every 4 people hadn't voted for them. Why is it different this time? Why don't those on the right work over time to change the system rather than behave like petulant mobs?

To change what system? White working class people are in a minority whatever system you have. Doesn't mean they should be ignored - even if everybody else despises them and blames them for their position.

I sense strong smell of victim-playing by those who are a minority and want to take vengeance because they just don't like what they have, little of which has been made for them by the new government.

I am sure there is more than a grain of truth in this. However there are clearly underlying issues which resonate amongst more of the population than may be seen at first glance.

 

[DarloRich]

Of course things were not helped by the fact that the attacker's identity was kept from the public initially, it really should have been clear to the authorities that things were spiralling out of control on social media in the hours after the event.

As i am sure you know that, as a minor, the accused could not be named on arrest. Only a judge at hearing can agree to release the name to the media. That was done on first hearing.

indeed in some quarters their heritage and being is lamented, blamed for all the world's ills

really? That's my heritage and i don't feel i am being blamed for all the worlds ills.

The other issue that inflames the situation is the left wing fascist counter protests.

really? that sounds like an excuse. Left wing "fascist" counter protests are to blame for, checks notes setting fire to a hotel in an attempt to kill people? . Aye, aye. Whatever.

Ah, I didn’t see a thread about the Leeds riots but am happy to read it if you point it out.

This is the immediate response from a blue tick twitter type to any criticism of this disgraceful behaviour. It is clearly meant to be some kind of "zinger" but i don't get it. Can you explain what the point you are making here is?

BTW - by using google I have been able to find out that 27 people have been arrested after the disturbances in Harehills. 1 person has been recalled to prison. Court hearings start soon.

You can’t solve a problem without knowing what is causing it.

i can solve this problem: FAFO ( there are going to be lots of doors getting knocked after this kind of behaviour. They already have been) We saw how that guy bitten by a dog blubbed like a baby in the dock. There is more of that to come.

Is there only one side causing trouble? I see the Muslim Defence League was out in force in Blackburn yesterday,

whataboutery and once again looking to blame someone else - when does personal reposnsilbity occur?

I note this thread started by castigating Farage (the go to bogeyman) and one poster referring to Reform UK (who got 4.1 million votes last month) as “disgusting”. Not sure this helps.

That is true enough though. He has had a part to play in whipping all this up. Him and other "commentators" have a lot to answer for! Odd that he has gone silent. I wonder if it is dawning on him and others that they might be in a bit of trouble here.

This involves everyone stepping out of their echo chambers and respectfully listening to others

Nah, you are alight - i don't want to respectfully listen to racist goons. I want them smashed by the police and locked up. We as a society can not gratify these criminals with false equality with decent folk. You don't get to go on the rampage and expect the civilised majority to listen to you. Whatever your "legitimate political concerns" maybe you lose the right to have them considered when you act like animals.

FFS: These scum tried to burn down a hotel and kill people inside because they were brown. They tried to murder people! Murder. These "Legitimate political concerns" are worthless after that. There aren't "decent people on both sides" here.

PS Are many small boats washing up in Hartlepool, Sunderland or Hull? Google tells me Hull is 93.9% white, Hartlepooh 96.6% and Sunderland 94.6%. By comparison, Milton Keynes is 77.1% white. Maybe I should drink some strong lager and lob a wheelie bin at the old bill and loot an 02 store!

EDIT - it is going to be very difficult for there to be any debate on any underpinning issues after this. The government ( of either colour) cant be seen to give in to the mob.
.

 

[jon0844]

These far right loons will never be satisfied. They voted leave because they were told they'd get sovereignty back and be able to send the foreigners home, and now they're just told it's all about the immigrants.

They've been told all their lives by the likes of the BNP, EDL, UKIP and Reform that their issues are down to foreigners to cover up the real reasons they're suffering.

 

[Oxfordblues]

One lesson for the legal system is that the alleged perpetrator of an atrocity should be immediately identified. It was a serious error of judgement in my view to hide his identity on the basis that his legal right to anonymity must be protected. The police, government and press all knew who he was but the public were left to hazard a guess. Many people erroneously assumed he must be an illegal immigrant and/or Islamist, with the dreadful consequences we have witnessed this week.

Edit: I've just checked Booking.com and find that the Holiday Inn, Rotherham, which has just been ransacked, is advertising rooms at £108 per night. (Who on Earth takes their holidays in Rotherham?)

 

[WelshBluebird]

No, we don't have really have equality of opportunity, even in theory let alone practice.

Correct. The brain dead morons setting fire to police stations, citizens advice beauru centres and hotels have had more opportunities than most of the migrants and asylum seekers that they hound. Certainly I'd like to see how those people would have dealt with having to grow up in a war zone for example.

And before you even try to suggest I don't know what I'm talking about. I do. I am white British from an incredibly downtrodden, ignored, neglected and troubled part of the UK. The area I grew up is often labelled as one of the more deprived parts of Europe let alone the UK. Yet guess what - if you actually apply yourself then you can improve life for yourself. It isn't easy, and many will have less than ideal hole situations that make it harder, but to suggest that these people don't have opportunities to better themselves is just way off.

Where I would agree is we need to better support people to be able to make use of the opportunities that are available. Public spaces like libraries for example where kids with troubled home environments could work - but of course the last 14 years of austerity and squeezing council budgets has led to lots of them closing. Though saying that given the violent thugs set one alight yesterday too, maybe they don't want to take the opportunities available to them.

The other issue that inflames the situation is the left wing fascist counter protests.

The counter protesters are the only reason we haven't seen the horrible scenes from Rotherham today (a hotel that had people in being set on fire) in other cities. Last night in Bristol a literal human wall was all that stood between a hotel housing asylum seekers and migrants and the violent thugs until the police finally got there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Aug 2024 ==

One lesson for the legal system is that the alleged perpetrator of an atrocity should be immediately identified. It was a serious error of judgement in my view to hide his identity on the basis that his legal right to anonymity must be protected. The police, government and press all knew who he was but the public were left to hazard a guess. Many people erroneously assumed he must be an illegal immigrant and/or Islamist, with the dreadful consequences we have witnessed this week.

Maybe, just maybe, those making incorrect assumptions or downright spreading lies should have done what the rest of us did and wait for the proper legal proceedings to take place.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

One lesson for the legal system is that the alleged perpetrator of an atrocity should be immediately identified. It was a serious error of judgement in my view to hide his identity on the basis that his legal right to anonymity must be protected. The police, government and press all knew who he was but the public were left to hazard a guess. Many people erroneously assumed he must be an illegal immigrant and/or Islamist, with the dreadful consequences we have witnessed this week.

Once again the defendant in this case is under 18, the law is that under 18s cannot be named. The judge allowed this restriction to be lifted at the first legal opportunity.
In any case is the correct response to not getting the information you want to go smash up the local mosque?

 

[DarloRich]

They've been told all their lives by the likes of the BNP, EDL, UKIP and Reform that their issues are down to foreigners to cover up the real reasons they're suffering.

Imagine for a moment: all the black and brown people have been sent back. Who is to blame for the problems in society? Someone has to be blamed because otherwise you might have to look at choices you made in life!

 

[jon0844]

One lesson for the legal system is that the alleged perpetrator of an atrocity should be immediately identified. It was a serious error of judgement in my view to hide his identity on the basis that his legal right to anonymity must be protected. The police, government and press all knew who he was but the public were left to hazard a guess. Many people erroneously assumed he must be an illegal immigrant and/or Islamist, with the dreadful consequences we have witnessed this week.

How do you then protect the innocent children? If something happens and the offender isn't clearly identified and is later arrested, are they named before being charged and going through court with the evidence presented?

Or do you now pick and choose? But if you choose anonymity in selected cases, what happens when Nigel starts 'just asking questions'?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Aug 2024 ==

Imagine for a moment: all the black and brown people have been sent back. Who is to blame for the problems in society? Someone has to be blamed because otherwise you might have to look at choices you made in life!

See why Trump wanted Republicans to vote against a bill that might have slowed the numbers of people crossing the border.

They're the perfect scapegoats.

 

[nw1]

Perhaps we should be looking a little closer at (for instance) the opportunities available to offspring of immigrant professionals vs. that of white working class children, and how the perpetuation of the inbalance of outcomes should be avoided in the future?

Corrected that for you!

Comparing the opportunities for children of professionals versus working class people is a valid one - but I don't think it's valid to bring race and immigration status into the argument in the way that you have above. I certainly don't think whiteness confers disadvantages, and being an immigrant confers advantages, for example. Quite the converse, in fact.

 

[uglymonkey]

We colonised and had the largest empire on earth at one point, therefore however slight , a lot of the world's population, has a link to these islands ( for good or ill)

 

[najaB]

No, we don't have really have equality of opportunity, even in theory let alone practice.

Do we not have free education to age 18? And bursaries/scholarships available to high-performing needy students?

 

[renegademaster]

And bursaries/scholarships available to high-performing needy students?

Those went away ages ago. The ones you get at 16-18 anyway. Theirs still a bursary but its not based on acedmeics and very small amount

 

[najaB]

Those went away ages ago. The ones you get at 16-18 anyway. Theirs still a bursary but its not based on acedmeics and very small amount

Tell that to organisations such as the The Scholarship Hub, they seem to be working under the impression that they're still available.

True, they're not government funded, but they do still exist.

 

[nw1]

whataboutery and once again looking to blame someone else - when does personal reposnsilbity occur?

I do find it ironic that normally personal responsibility is a central tenet of the right, yet in some cases people are apparently throwing it out of the window.

I guess that's the difference between traditional Tories (for example) and the alt-right, though.

 

[Cowley]

Imagine for a moment: all the black and brown people have been sent back. Who is to blame for the problems in society? Someone has to be blamed because otherwise you might have to look at choices you made in life!

I should imagine that it would most likely be Jewish people again. Many far right types if pushed start rambling about the New World Order, Great Replacement Theory, George Soros etc etc, and many of those ideas have a certain level of antisemitism embedded within.

 

[Robin Edwards]

White working class people are in a minority whatever system you have. Doesn't mean they should be ignored - even if everybody else despises them and blames them for their position.

Tell me your'e on a wind up?
White working class people are in a minority? If your'e talking about in the UK which I assume you are, then I think you need to go back to the start and forget all of the untruths you have picked up on in life and stop believing you are the victim ffs!

Unhappy right-wing terrorists are afoot in Rotherham trying to torch a hotel with brown people inside and you want to believe you're the one in a minority??

I fully expect the criminal justice system to correct this victim-playing, especially as the JSO planning to peacefully hold up drivers on our roads got five years in jail.

 

[nw1]

Edit: I've just checked Booking.com and find that the Holiday Inn, Rotherham, which has just been ransacked, is advertising rooms at £108 per night.

I guess it's a common stop-over for journeys up and down the M1.

Perhaps what they should do is convert it to a prison, though, and use it to allow these people to serve their (hopefully 20 year plus) sentences once convicted without worrying about overflowing the prisons.

 

[Robin Edwards]

We colonised and had the largest empire on earth at one point, therefore however slight , a lot of the world's population, has a link to these islands ( for good or ill)

Indeed we did. Europeans murdered millions over three or four hundred years in Asia, Africa and the Americas - yet a minority of Brits still don't like brown people, apparently??

 

[renegademaster]

Tell me your'e on a wind up?
White working class people are in a minority? If your'e talking about in the UK which I assume you are, then I think you need to go back to the start and forget all of the untruths you have picked up on in life and stop believing you are the victim ffs!

Unhappy right-wing terrorists are afoot in Rotherham trying to torch a hotel with brown people inside and you want to believe you're the one in a minority??

I fully expect the criminal justice system to correct this victim-playing, especially as the JSO planning to peacefully hold up drivers on our roads got five years in jail.

Some people being criminals doesn't suddenly make you a majority. I smell I bit of victim mentality here as well. I'm sure the arsonists will end up with lengthy prison sentences, special courts have already been formed and hundreds have been arrested . And even someone arrested for throwing a bottle will end up with a lengthy sentence if they had a rap sheet as long as the JSO example you gave.

 

[nw1]

One particularly interesting thing was related to me by a friend today.

He told me of a colleague of another friend of mine, and this colleague was not your stereotypical far-right conspiracy theorist.

The person (whom I don't know personally) is apparently a personable, young (30-ish) woman in a public facing role in a decent employer. Apparently she goes along with all this conspiracy theory nonsense about Starmer and the police covering up the "fact" that the real killer was a Muslim asylum-seeker.

A sample size of one, of course, but this could perhaps tentatively indicate that this sort of alt-right post-truth nonsense might possibly be pervasive across different sectors of society. People are quick to blame the working-class but I suspect a lot of the far-right belong firmly in the middle-class.

Whatever, it's worrying that a wide range of people might be believing this stuff.

I hope that some steps are taken to tackle social media disinformation (which is the root cause of all this trouble), though I will admit that I don't have the answers myself.

 

[najaB]

One particularly interesting thing was related to me by a friend today.

He told me of a colleague of another friend of mine, and this colleague was not your stereotypical far-right conspiracy theorist.

The person (whom I don't know personally) is apparently a personable, young (30-ish) woman in a public facing role in a decent employer. Apparently she goes along with all this conspiracy theory nonsense about Starmer and the police covering up the "fact" that the real killer was a Muslim asylum-seeker.

A sample size of one, of course, but this could perhaps tentatively indicate that this sort of alt-right post-truth nonsense might possibly be pervasive across different sectors of society. People are quick to blame the working-class but I suspect a lot of the far-right belong firmly in the middle-class.

Whatever, it's worrying that a wide range of people might be believing this stuff.

I hope that some steps are taken to tackle social media disinformation (which is the root cause of all this trouble), though I will admit that I don't have the answers myself.

It's funny how the same people who complain that the government is completely incompetent and does nothing but waste our money simultaneously hold that the same government is capable of pulling off wide-ranging conspiracies that require the perfect coordination and silence of dozens, hundreds or even thousands of people.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Just watched Starmers speech. Not that it will make any difference to the morons engaged in such violence but it was good to see him call it for what it is rather than try to tip toe about it bring far right thuggery. Also a pointed comment at those who fan the flames online then run away - presumably pretty much directed at Yaxley-Lennon.

 

[Bantamzen]

As i am sure you know that, as a minor, the accused could not be named on arrest. Only a judge at hearing can agree to release the name to the media. That was done on first hearing.

And that decision should have been made sooner, if for no other reason than it might have stopped at least some of what we saw. Sadly social media moves at a billion times quicker than the system.

really? That's my heritage and i don't feel i am being blamed for all the worlds ills.

Yes, really. And I don't believe for a second you were not aware that many people do feel that way, whether it is justified or not.

 

[Sorcerer]

I must admit that when I heard about some of the far right violence happening in Liverpool on these forums, it was genuinely the first place I heard about it. I knew about some riots going on across the country after Southport but I had no idea it happened here (albeit I don't pay attention to the news much these days). In my experience we are a mostly left-wing city and very welcoming to other people, so I am confident in saying that the far-right lunatics are very much in the minority round here.

Of course when Farage says it's nothing compared to what could happen in the coming weeks, he's very much right in the same way a mobster operating a protection racket is right when he tells you that your business will be in danger if you don't pay up. It's a true statement, but they are also missing out the crucial detail that they are part of the danger you're supposed to be worried about. Thankfully though it seems Keir Starmer and his team are very much aware of the threat of far right populism and can nip it in the bud not only through arrests but also disempowerment by dealing with issues the likes of Reform like to hijack but without the thinly-veiled bigotry.

 

[Gloster]

One particularly interesting thing was related to me by a friend today.

He told me of a colleague of another friend of mine, and this colleague was not your stereotypical far-right conspiracy theorist.

The person (whom I don't know personally) is apparently a personable, young (30-ish) woman in a public facing role in a decent employer. Apparently she goes along with all this conspiracy theory nonsense about Starmer and the police covering up the "fact" that the real killer was a Muslim asylum-seeker.

A sample size of one, of course, but this could perhaps tentatively indicate that this sort of alt-right post-truth nonsense might possibly be pervasive across different sectors of society. People are quick to blame the working-class but I suspect a lot of the far-right belong firmly in the middle-class.

Whatever, it's worrying that a wide range of people might be believing this stuff.

I hope that some steps are taken to tackle social media disinformation (which is the root cause of all this trouble), though I will admit that I don't have the answers myself.

I know it is one of the traditional targets of the left, but in my opinion the Daily Mail and Telegraph must bear a proportion of the responsibility for causing plenty of seemingly decent people to believe in right-wing favouring conspiracy theories. They try to project, and to a certain extent succeed, in making themselves appear to be reasonable newspapers merely reporting and commenting on the news. Instead they produce a lot of vicious, right-wing bile and innuendo that seeps into the brains of those who, despite their middle-class pretensions and educations, are hard of thinking. Although nowadays I will agree that the Internet is much more dangerous, the two papers sowed the seeds.

 

[Bluejays]

Firstly. I firmly believe the responsibility for rioting lies with rioters and rioters alone. Some of the arguments about who influenced them almost verge on excusing the rioters or making out that they're unthinking and only doing what they've been told. There's a lot of agency involved in deciding to indulge in that level of violence, they deserve to be punished with the full force of the law




As the causes conversation is already rolling. I find some of the ways that people are trying to insert Nigel Farage as prime villain to be quite laughable really. I'm no fan of Farage or reform but the idea that they have caused these riots is a bit silly. I hope Farage and reform are taking notes of some of the tweets from the more well known people throwing accusations at them, and wouldn't be surprised to see some payouts following.

2 people that should be worried though I'd imagine would be Tommy Robinson and Laurence fox. Robinson seems to desperately be trying to row back now, asking for peaceful protests. But he was listing locations of protests/riots and fanning the flames, I seem to remember the police being very interested in similar posts that were made by people during the London riots a few years back.

Fox seems to be doing his level best to get charged. Very incendiary speech at the gathering last weekend and some quite vile tweets this week, including today.

 

[ChrisC]

One particularly interesting thing was related to me by a friend today.

He told me of a colleague of another friend of mine, and this colleague was not your stereotypical far-right conspiracy theorist.

The person (whom I don't know personally) is apparently a personable, young (30-ish) woman in a public facing role in a decent employer. Apparently she goes along with all this conspiracy theory nonsense about Starmer and the police covering up the "fact" that the real killer was a Muslim asylum-seeker.

A sample size of one, of course, but this could perhaps tentatively indicate that this sort of alt-right post-truth nonsense might possibly be pervasive across different sectors of society. People are quick to blame the working-class but I suspect a lot of the far-right belong firmly in the middle-class.

Whatever, it's worrying that a wide range of people might be believing this stuff.

I hope that some steps are taken to tackle social media disinformation (which is the root cause of all this trouble), though I will admit that I don't have the answers myself.

It is worrying and unfortunately true that a wide range of people are believing this stuff.

There are whole sections of society and many of the younger generation who never watch the tv news or listen to news on a reputable radio station. Whatever you may think of the BBC or indeed ITV or Sky etc their news reports are usually reasonably to be trusted. There are people now who get all of their news from social media and believe so much rubbish that they read on Facebook, Tictok and X. I don‘t use them, but I was talking to a friend this afternoon who tells me that there is some absolutely disgusting vile stuff on X at the moment concerning the current situation. People are believing this.

My cousin was telling me recently about his 13 year old boy, who is actually very intelligent, who believes complete nonsense that he has seen on YouTube. They are now trying to watch the tv news as a family most days so that he gets a more accurate picture of what is happening in the world.

 

[RT4038]

Tell me your'e on a wind up?
White working class people are in a minority? If your'e talking about in the UK which I assume you are, then I think you need to go back to the start and forget all of the untruths you have picked up on in life and stop believing you are the victim ffs!

For that comment, perhaps our definition of working class is not quite the same!

Tell me your'e on a wind up?


Unhappy right-wing terrorists are afoot in Rotherham trying to torch a hotel with brown people inside and you want to believe you're the one in a minority??

Not sure that the colour of the people is the issue - this is an issue of immigration - of numbers.

There is no excuse to be rioting, setting fire to / looting etc, endangering lives (of whoever they are) and the full force of the law has to brought down on the perpetrators.

 

[DarloRich]

And that decision should have been made sooner,

could you set out how?

Yes, really. And I don't believe for a second you were not aware that many people do feel that way, whether it is justified or not.

I know people FEEL that way but i don't believe it or think it is an excuse for what has been going on. To further the discussion: what heritage do these people being done away with?

As the causes conversation is already rolling. I find some of the ways that people are trying to insert Nigel Farage as prime villain to be quite laughable really. I'm no fan of Farage or reform but the idea that they have caused these riots is a bit silly.

Farage and others in that right wing media ecosystem might not have lit the fire but they helped set it and let people know where they could find more fuel.

 

[Bantamzen]

Firstly. I firmly believe the responsibility for rioting lies with rioters and rioters alone. Some of the arguments about who influenced them almost verge on excusing the rioters or making out that they're unthinking and only doing what they've been told. There's a lot of agency involved in deciding to indulge in that level of violence, they deserve to be punished with the full force of the law

The reasons for this outburst of violence will have much deeper roots than any one person, even the gob on a stick that is Farage. Unfortunately far right groups are often able to read the mood of any given area through their hooligan crew networks, so they know where and when to light the fires. But this will all be coming because people are increasingly concerned or angry.