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Far North Line - Declassified?
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RailUK Forums
Sure is!
To be set aside for the use of first class passengers the conveyance of first class needs to be noted in the timetable (currently the symbol bellow is used) - the (e)NRT I assume is definitive.
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Yes, and the NRT does indicate that 1st Class is available - hence I'm surprised to hear anecdotes of it being "declassified". Just wondered what the situation was on the ground!
There certainly are first class fares from Southampton Central to Wick as I am sure there is from many other places - if it was found that first class was declassified then one could claim a refund of the first class part of their ticker for the that part of their journey.
As such declassification seems to happen regularly I can only assume that there are lots of very small invisible midgets travelling on that line. To quote the NRCoC
As such declassification seems to happen regularly I can only assume that there are lots of very small invisible midgets travelling on that line. To quote the NRCoC
bb21
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First Class is certainly declassified on the Far North Line, and it is clearly stated in the ScotRail timetables.
http://www.scotrail.co.uk/timetables-routes/1831/1861/2011/winter
http://www.scotrail.co.uk/timetables-routes/1831/1861/2011/winter
ScotRail Timetable said:
I produced a seating plan for the Class 158 rolling stock used on the line back in the Spring.
"Declassified First Class seats (equivalent to standard with antimacassar and table has a pod with lamp & 230V power socket) as only Standard Class tickets on these lines"
This thread dealt with the topic (took me ages to find it, the Search on this site is a VERY acquired taste!):
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1111999#post1111999
When you get to the PDF seating plan link to Rail-Britain site, the username/password are revealed on an earlier page on that website, ie:
Username : public
Password : visitor
Amusing to find ScotRail had allegedly adopted the seating plan!
MKD
"Declassified First Class seats (equivalent to standard with antimacassar and table has a pod with lamp & 230V power socket) as only Standard Class tickets on these lines"
This thread dealt with the topic (took me ages to find it, the Search on this site is a VERY acquired taste!):
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1111999#post1111999
When you get to the PDF seating plan link to Rail-Britain site, the username/password are revealed on an earlier page on that website, ie:
Username : public
Password : visitor
Amusing to find ScotRail had allegedly adopted the seating plan!
MKD
The trains don't convey 1st class accommodation, the NRT and National Rail are incorrect. It's probably worth someone pointing this out to them. They're usually right but not always (another example is Gatwick Express incorrectly being listed as a Train Company
)as for Southampton to Wick, if someone claimed a refund, I am not sure how it would be calculated, but perhaps the Southampton - Wick FOR minus the Southampton - Inverness FOR, that gets you the difference between Inverness and Wick which is the section on which 1st class is not provided (but incorrectly advertised in certain places), and then perhaps some calculation to work out the difference in value between 1st and Std on that section... but wait, there's no need, as the difference is £0 anyway, both fares being £640.
So the extra fare on the part that is Std only is £0.
The trains don't convey 1st class accommodation, the NRT and National Rail are incorrect. It's probably worth someone pointing this out to them. They're usually right but not always (another example is Gatwick Express incorrectly being listed as a Train Company
as for Southampton to Wick, if someone claimed a refund, I am not sure how it would be calculated, but perhaps the Southampton - Wick FOR minus the Southampton - Inverness FOR, that gets you the difference between Inverness and Wick which is the section on which 1st class is not provided (but incorrectly advertised in certain places), and then perhaps some calculation to work out the difference in value between 1st and Std on that section... but wait, there's no need, as the difference is £0 anyway, both fares being £640.
So the extra fare on the part that is Std only is £0.
Are we saying that the NRT is not the definitive timetable and those produced by individual TOC's are?
Although now irrelevant I see no reason why a refund cannot be £0 in the same way an excess fare can be £0.
Well, the NRT and NRE are incorrect. It's a mistake. Fact.
But until it's rectified, there may well be people who purchase 1st class tickets in the understandably mistaken belief that the trains convey 1st class accommodation, and I believe they could claim accordingly. It may be difficult to calculate the refund due (I'll have a go at what I think it should be...), and it may also be a very small amount so not worth claiming.
I do think a claim would be legitimate in the circumstances of the difference in FOR fares being greater than the SOR.
National Rail Enquiries states that it is is "definitive".
Maybe there is such a thing as a £0 Rail Travel Voucher, but I'd be surprised.
There don't appear to be any 1st fares for Sotrail set fares to Wick, even Dunbar to Wick doesn't have 1st class options.
I have found a flow with a large difference:
Preston to Wick FOR £438
Preston to Inverness FOR £372
(both via Lancaster)
Using this example the difference in fares is £66, and an Inverness to Wick SOR is £31.30, so in this case the customer could reasonably claim £34.70. However I do not know if that is how it would actually be calculated.
But this is very much the exception.
Taking a different example London to Wick is only around £20 more than London to Inverness, so less than the SOR, so I would say no refund due for that ticket.
But then I don't know what the actual rules are, and some TOCs can be more generous.
It may well be a mistake (I'm not disagreeing here) but there are normally rules like terms & conditions or regulations which set out which document (in the case of different ones saying different things) is definitive and shall be used in arbitration of any issues that may have arisen. It is my fear that without such clarification both the TOC's and passengers are then able to pick and choose which document to use and all without an effective means of arbitration outside of the judicial system.
Hmm. I think if someone planned a journey using NRE, then bought the ticket from a ticket machine or ticket office, they should be entitled to a partial refund if the differenc ein fares (to Inverness/Wick) is greater than the Inverness-Wick SOR, however if the error is pointed out to them before they purchase that ticket, then I am not convinced they are entitled to anything, as nice as that would be...
If they are informed before they buy the ticket then they can make an informed choice about whether to still buy a first class ticket or to explore other options such as split ticketing, buying a single standard class ticket etc. However I would still say that they then entitled to write a letter to the ticket retailer queering the discrepancy with the NRT and asking why such information is not consistent and accurate, which is of-course much easier and more productive if the retailer is a TOC..
Nothing is ever simple with the British rail fares system as we all well know. I would like to make the following points, however.
When there is 1st class available for a significant portion of a flow then there should be a 1st class fare available. In general this fare should have already taken account of the fact that there is no 1st class available for certain parts of the journey.
With yorkie's example above the flow from Dunbar [DUN] to Wick [WCK] in my opinion should have a 1st class option available because it is possible to travel in 1st from DUN to Edinburgh [EDB] & from EDB to Inverness [INV] either direct or via Aberdeen [ABD]. With only the last leg from INV to WCK on the Far North Line with no first class provision. I feel it must be an oversight that it is missing.
When there is 1st class available for a significant portion of a flow then there should be a 1st class fare available. In general this fare should have already taken account of the fact that there is no 1st class available for certain parts of the journey.
With yorkie's example above the flow from Dunbar [DUN] to Wick [WCK] in my opinion should have a 1st class option available because it is possible to travel in 1st from DUN to Edinburgh [EDB] & from EDB to Inverness [INV] either direct or via Aberdeen [ABD]. With only the last leg from INV to WCK on the Far North Line with no first class provision. I feel it must be an oversight that it is missing.
Don't think that's possible, for example Basingstoke to Reading has 31/2 services an hour Mon - Sat, Mon- Fri 2 of these have no first class accommodation, but at weekends they all convey first class. How would you price this?
What about a Portsmouth Stns - Bristol TM FSR/ FOR where all the first class fares are routed Not London, the direct trains have no first class accommodation, but it is quicker and more comfortable to go via Reading in which case all services (assuming you travel direct from Reading) will convey first class accommodation? How would you price this?
In the case above you would need both standard and first class fares.
It is up to the passenger with a first class ticket to decide what is more important to them - time: therefore take the first train regardless of class - or comfort: await the first train with first class seating.
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My example is for a flow where there is section of that flow that has no first class provision but where a significant portion does. Not for a flow that has alternating services with or without first class accommodation.
We may be at cross purposes? If so feel free to query & I'll try to explain a bit more clearly.
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