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Fantasy: Third rail speed record using a 110mph-capable Desiro

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D365

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Even that's not much of a record. The only country with mainline 3rd rail running (i.e. 100mph) manages to get one of it's highest powered multiple units to do a fast run, just 9mph above normal linespeed. If one of the LNR Class 350/1 sets had shoes put back on (and any current software bars on DC running removed), it could do 110mph in service (PW dept permitting on 3rd rail).

Rather than add shoes to the class 350 units, could you not just update the software on class 444's or class 450 units, as they are all desiro units, just built at different times.

No you couldn’t, because there were also changes to the motors required to enable 110 mph running…

Ah, okay. But it would have to be a 350/1 unit that is equipped as any of the rest of the class 350's where not equipped with being able to run on 3rd rail.

Would there be any operational benefit to converting the Class 450/444 fleets to 110mph operation?

Not sure what @Robbies means by ”it would have to be a 350/1 unit”. Would this be part of the hypothetical speed record?

Further to this, if you really wanted to go ahead with this exercise; are you not forgetting a certain dual-voltage fleet that is already 110mph capable? ;)
 
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JonathanH

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Would there be any operational benefit to converting the Class 450/444 fleets to 110mph operation?
There is a fundamental point that the 350, 360 and 387 fleets are running on 125mph lines and there is no such route south of the Thames passed for that speed which uses DC power.

Is there a potential problem with DC power pick up above 100mph?

Further to this, if you really wanted to go ahead with this exercise; are you not forgetting a certain dual-voltage fleet that is already 110mph capable? ;)
Yes, clearly a 395 would be better for a speed record attempt if it was deemed worthwhile.
 

RobShipway

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Would there be any operational benefit to converting the Class 450/444 fleets to 110mph operation?

Not sure what @Robbies means by ”it would have to be a 350/1 unit”. Would this be part of the hypothetical speed record?

Further to this, if you really wanted to go ahead with this exercise; are you not forgetting a certain dual-voltage fleet that is already 110mph capable? ;)
Class 350/1's where the only class 350 units built with both pantograph and third rail shoes from the outset. The other sets of class 350's have never had 3rd rail shoes fitted, so there would be more work required to make them compatible with DC rails.
 

randyrippley

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How fast could the Eurostar sets go on third rail? Surely they must be the potentially fastest
 

JonathanH

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How fast could the Eurostar sets go on third rail? Surely they must be the potentially fastest
As fast as the line speed, which is no more than any other third rail stock capable of 100mph. A lot more train to shift in the case of Eurostars (and the same amount of power supply).

The problem with third rail stock does seem to be a lack of places to try and run them any faster than the current records.
 

stuu

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I imagine not wanting to set fire to the substations is a major reason not to try for a record
 

Bald Rick

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Surely the main reason not to try for the record is that there is no point.
 

Trackman

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Is there a potential problem with DC power pick up above 100mph?
I'm not sure about the power side, but the third rail would need replacing with longer ramps at it would be right at the tolerance threshold.
 

D365

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Surely the main reason not to try for the record is that there is no point.
Exactly my thought - hence the emphasis on ”fantasy”!

I suppose this is just a bit of idle Friday afternoon fun.
 

AM9

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There is a fundamental point that the 350, 360 and 387 fleets are running on 125mph lines and there is no such route south of the Thames passed for that speed which uses DC power.
The fastest lines on the old SR network are limited in repect of performance on DC:
a) none of them have linespeeds in excess of 100mph​
b) the DC system itself limits the total current in a fed section to under 10,000A, i.e. 7.5MW - sometimes as low as 6,000A.​
c) most EMUs had an average of one 250 or 275 HP EE507 traction motor per car, which in theory would allow over 4 x 12-car units freedom to run​
Generally not a problem in the metro as power sectioning is for smaller areas so even when there are processions of trains running on yellows, their speed is low and they were coasting for much of the time. Even in the suburban area there isn't that much opportunity for trains to sustain top notch power for enough time to create overloads. Specific units like the class 432s (4-REPs) which were capable of drawing over 3,000A had restrictions on when more than one unit was coupled in order to not exceed the local capabilities of the DC supply. The class 422 which had half of the power of a class 432 per 5-car unit similarly draws over 3000A as a 10-car consist.
Roll time forward to the present where new design EMUs are designed with twice as much power per car:
class 444 - 400kW​
class 387 - 420kW​
class 450 - 500kW​
class 395 - 560kW​
The only practical fix for the DC power supply's inadequacies is to limit the maximum power draw. That is acceptable for the 387s and 395 as their main roles are working under OLE with effectively no power limitations. The SWR Desiros unfortunately operate crippled by their software on all duties.

Is there a potential problem with DC power pick up above 100mph?
3rd rail collection requires constant electrical continuity between the the conductor rail and the train's electrical circuit by a metal shoe. The shoe needs a significant pressure to ensure that the current isn't all passing through a high spot and not limited by rail head contamination. The higher the speed, the more pressure, however, a steel shoe on a steel rail would suffer significant wear if the pressure was high enough to give good pick-up at those speeds. So the compromise is that 100mph is recognised as the fastest practical operational speed. Higher speeds would result in the shoes bouncing over undulations causing continuous arcing and wear of the rail. This would be true even after profiling and geometry being addressed for higher speeds.

Yes, clearly a 395 would be better for a speed record attempt if it was deemed worthwhile.
Although on DC, it is so slugged in its software that I expect it's performance isn't much better than an Electrostar.
 
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HamworthyGoods

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Class 350/1's where the only class 350 units built with both pantograph and third rail shoes from the outset. The other sets of class 350's have never had 3rd rail shoes fitted, so there would be more work required to make them compatible with DC rails.

So many mods have happened and standards changed since the 350/1s last ran on 3rd rail there is in engineering terms very little difference in the work required between 350/1s and 350/2s to make either work with a stabiliser rail. Just because something had something doesn’t necessarily make it easier to restore 15 years later.
 

randyrippley

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As fast as the line speed, which is no more than any other third rail stock capable of 100mph. A lot more train to shift in the case of Eurostars (and the same amount of power supply).

The problem with third rail stock does seem to be a lack of places to try and run them any faster than the current records.
Just about every speed record attempt has - almost by definition - to breach the line speed limit.
And the Eurostar sets had drives, transmission and suspension designed to run in excess of any 3rd rail line speed - and faster than any other third rail stock.
 

JonathanH

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Just about every speed record attempt has - almost by definition - to breach the line speed limit.
Yes, that much is obvious - the point made by another poster about 'ramps' seems pertinent about the practical limitations.

And the Eurostar sets had drives, transmission and suspension designed to run in excess of any 3rd rail line speed - and faster than any other third rail stock
Yes, I agree although a Eurostar might need significantly more traction current than another unit capable of the same speed given the limitations of the third rail system. The fact that a Eurostar already holds the record of 208mph for a third-rail capable train on UK rails doesn't really dictate that it is the most appropriate unit to attempt to go a bit better than 109mph on the third rail. (The old comment about a Eurostar reaching the third rail network on full power and all the lights in Kent going out comes to mind.)

The point would appear to be that a Eurostar isn't needed to break the record held by a 442 because most of the modern members third rail fleet are probably capable of running faster than 109mph if their limiters were to be removed.
 

AM9

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The point would appear to be that a Eurostar isn't needed to break the record held by a 442 because most of the modern members third rail fleet are probably capable of running faster than 109mph if their limiters were to be removed.
My feelings exactly, the 387s that Thameslink had as a stop gap before the 700s arrived were run on 25kV ac and 750VDC daily. Although they could run at 110mph under OLE, the design of the MML OLE limited them to 100mph. Similarly, if all the rules about the BML linespeed limit and 3rd rail current draw were swept aside, they could probably have done 110mph south of Gatwick, (maybe once at least). The clean-up job might have involved considerable work on the 3rd rail and the collector shoes. :oops: The bottom line is that 3rd rail is essentially a metro system of power delivery. It has been stretched well beyond its optimum capability on 100mph track, but any daft ideas of higher than that is a waste of resources for ne real benefit.
 
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D6975

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Have any Eurostars still got third rail pickups? I think that the 374s are overhead only, multiple voltage capability. There aren't that many 373s still in service and the ones that are have been refurbished, so did they have the 3rd rail capability removed?

edit - Wikipedia claims it has been removed, but you know how unreliable info on there can be
 

Elecman

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The fastest lines on the old SR network are limited in repect of performance on DC:
a) none of them have linespeeds in excess of 100mph​
b) the DC system itself limits the total current in a fed section to under 10,000A, i.e. 7.5MW - sometimes as low as 6,000A.​
c) most EMUs had an average of one 250 or 275 HP EE507 traction motor per car, which in theory would allow over 4 x 12-car units freedom to run​
Generally not a problem in the metro as power sectioning is for smaller areas so even when there are processions of trains running on yellows, their speed is low and they were coasting for much of the time. Even in the suburban area there isn't that much opportunity for trains to sustain top notch power for enough time to create overloads. Specific units like the class 432s (4-REPs) which were capable of drawing over 3,000A had restrictions on when more than one unit was coupled in order to not exceed the local capabilities of the DC supply. The class 422 which had half of the power of a class 432 per 5-car unit similarly draws over 3000A as a 10-car consist.
Roll time forward to the present where new design EMUs are designed with twice as much power per car:
class 444 - 400kW​
class 387 - 420kW​
class 450 - 500kW​
class 395 - 560kW​
The only practical fix for the DC power supply's inadequacies is to limit the maximum power draw. That is acceptable for the 387s and 395 as their main roles are working under OLE with effectively no power limitations. The SWR Desiros unfortunately operate crippled by their software on all duties.


3rd rail collection requires constant electrical continuity between the the conductor rail and the train's electrical circuit by a metal shoe. The shoe needs a significant pressure to ensure that the current isn't all passing through a high spot and not limited by rail head contamination. The higher the speed, the more pressure, however, a steel shoe on a steel rail would suffer significant wear if the pressure was high enough to give good pick-up at those speeds. So the compromise is that 100mph is recognised as the fastest practical operational speed. Higher speeds would result in the shoes bouncing over undulations causing continuous arcing and wear of the rail. This would be true even after profiling and geometry being addressed for higher speeds.


Although on DC, it is so slugged in its software that I expect it's performance isn't much better than an Electrostar.
The shoes are Cast Iron rather than steel ( or they used to be ) as CI is softer so the shoe wears rather than the rail and seems to self lubricate.

BREL Horwich foundry cast thousands of collector shoes a year
 

AM9

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The shoes are Cast Iron rather than steel ( or they used to be ) as CI is softer so the shoe wears rather than the rail and seems to self lubricate.

BREL Horwich foundry cast thousands of collector shoes a year
Yes of course, but even with the lower coefficient of friction, ever higher speeds will increase wear and worsen contact with a gravity loaded shoe on 3rd rail.
 

Sean Emmett

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Another reminder that 442s were recorded at 117 mph in public service!

Posted in a bit more detail on units thread a few weeks ago.

I did time eurostars at 100 mph on the third rail, maybe a tad more, need to check.
 
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