Fantasy London Underground???

[tyburn]

Not sure if title is correct, but the thing I wanted to say is does anyone have like any fantasy tube line ideas? What I mean is if all the London Underground didn't exist, what lines would you put in London? Also give names for the lines as well thanks

 

[NSE]

Gosh. A big question. I think having a more grid like layout would work if it was from scratch. But I don’t know if London’s geography would really allow that.

Reducing the question to the current layout, I’d certainly expand the deep level tunnels for air conditioning and slightly larger trains. Purely for passenger comfort and space.

 

[telstarbox]

I would get rid of the fussy countryside branches above Harrow on the Met and hand them over to Chiltern or maybe buses.

 

[devon_belle]

Double up some of the main tunnels as 'express' lines with platforms at only major interchanges. Not feeling creative enough to design a new line from scratch!

 

[Cross City]

Vic Line extension to Leytonstone and Ilford in the north and to Streatham and Croydon in the south

Split the Northern Line branches. Battersea branch extension to Clapham J.

Something going Wimbledon-Clapham J-Sloane Sq-Knightsbridge-Paddington

 

[mike57]

Double up some of the main tunnels as 'express' lines with platforms at only major interchanges.

Wasn't this the idea with the deep level shelters constructed during WW2, after the war they would create a stop skipping service, certainly where I grew up in London near Clapham South.

Its also the case that devlopment followed the outer ends of a lot of the tube lines, so changing the routes would have changed development patterns,

 

[stuu]

I would get rid of the fussy countryside branches above Harrow on the Met and hand them over to Chiltern or maybe buses.

Buses? Have you ever been on the Metropolitan line north of Harrow in the morning?

As to the actual question, a proper express outer circle line would be good, similar to the GPE in Paris. Also when I lived in South London I did daydream about a New York style 4 track line from Croydon up the A23

 

[devon_belle]

Wasn't this the idea with the deep level shelters constructed during WW2, after the war they would create a stop skipping service, certainly where I grew up in London near Clapham South.

I didn't know about that, but I believe there were some pre-war proposals to the effect of what I suggested. There is probably a Jago Hazard YouTube video on the subject somewhere.

 

[A S Leib]

I would get rid of the fussy countryside branches above Harrow on the Met and hand them over to Chiltern or maybe buses.,

180,000 people live within 3 km (straight line) of North Harrow station, 140,000 within 3 km of Pinner, 90,000 for Northwood Hills, 60,000 for Northwood, 55,000 for Moor Park, 50,000 for Croxley, 90,000 for Watford, 33,000 for Rickmansworth, 20,000 each for Chorleywood and Chalfont and Latimer, 30,000 for Chesham and 25,000 for Amersham. (By comparison, for Epping it's 16,000, 20,000 for Theydon Bois, 40,000 for Debden, 50,000 for Loughton and 80,000 for Buckhurst Hill, but somehow leaving the eastern Central line as the Hainault loop never seems to come up, just cutting the Met - to call it a solution in search of a problem would be charitable.) Of course a lot of people are within 3 km of more than one of those, but there's also lots of people who drive from e.g. Hemel Hempstead to northern tube stations for cheaper fares / more convenient City access.

As for giving it to Chiltern, why on Earth would you move a set of completely electrified routes with eight trains per hour in the off-peak to an operator with no electric trains and which has cut direct London - Aylesbury trains from three per hour pre-pandemic to one in some hours? There's not enough capacity at Marylebone to absorb much more - and if there was I think Beaconsfield and High Wycombe would be the priority - so would Chiltern start serving Baker Street for the sake of it? Would Aylesbury, from whence it already takes twice as long to get to London as from Milton Keynes twenty kilometres further away, have to absorb passengers from five more stations with a less frequent service? Would Chesham and Watford lose services to central London entirely?

All of that's without considering that Baker Street to Aldgate is busy enough that it needs a very frequent service; would you just leave that section with four fewer trains per hour, or find somewhere else to terminate them?

 

[stuu]

Wasn't this the idea with the deep level shelters constructed during WW2, after the war they would create a stop skipping service, certainly where I grew up in London near Clapham South.

Its also the case that devlopment followed the outer ends of a lot of the tube lines, so changing the routes would have changed development patterns,

Yes, that's correct, although how likely or thought-through it was is pretty unclear - some sources talk about it being a cover story for more underground defence infrastructure once the Cold War got under way

 

[mike57]

I didn't know about that, but I believe there were some pre-war proposals to the effect of what I suggested. There is probably a Jago Hazard YouTube video on the subject somewhere.

Here:

I was aware of them growing up in the 60s but never had the oportunity to explore

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Surprised that no-one yet has suggested re-opening the far end of the Metropolitan Line to Verney Junction.

 

[devon_belle]

Surprised that no-one yet has suggested re-opening the far end of the Metropolitan Line to Verney Junction.

Or the District line to Southend?

 

[Route115?]

When the main lines were built there were regulations stopping them advancing into central London and they had to stop roughly where the circle line is. I would like to see a single central London terminus possibly under Hyde Park, it could be at Kings X. This would have a knock on effect on the need for tube lines.

It sounds like a topic for a thesis (but then I have written a thesis on building a single London terminal - conclusion, not really practicable, but definately so in a fantasy world).

From the passenger perspective cut & cover lines are easier to access (and ventilate) but obviously building them is a nightmare.

Another thing I would like to see is stations wherever lines cross at places such as Hanger Lane / Park Royal, etc and top of my list an large interchange at West Hampstead. Trekking betwen Harrow on the Hill and Harrow & Wealdstone is a pain and could be avoidable.

Stations need to be built next to shopping and civic centres and have adjacent bus stations.

Does it come down to checken & egg? You can build an ideal transport network for a city (but can go get an efficient city before the transport system is built), or you can build a network and then build a city around it. The French have done this, but will it happen in this country? Still the thread has fantasy in its title!

 

[172007]

Bakerloo is extended to Birmingham in a hyperloop tunnel with the trains capable of 300 mph. Well you did ask for fantasy.

 

[randyrippley]

Double up some of the main tunnels as 'express' lines with platforms at only major interchanges. Not feeling creative enough to design a new line from scratch!

Could that now be done using the WW2 emergency shelters on the Northern line? It was their original intent

 

[Irascible]

Connect the Hackney area to the west end somehow, doesn't have to be Crossrail 2. As it's fantasy, keep tunneling from Moorgate northern city to somewhere useful. Do something with the Highgate-Finsbury Park corridor too. Those were my main annoyances when I lived there - buses out of the Hackney area weren't too bad when they were doubled-up Routemasters ( they'd skip stops alternately ) which had little dwell time, but after that not so much.

 

[JohnRegular]

Bakerloo is extended to Birmingham in a hyperloop tunnel with the trains capable of 300 mph. Well you did ask for fantasy.

Even for a fantasy thread, this is just absurd, ridiculous nonsense.

The Jubilee, on the other hand...

 

[AlastairFraser]

Vic Line extension to Leytonstone and Ilford in the north and to Streatham and Croydon in the south

Split the Northern Line branches. Battersea branch extension to Clapham J.

Something going Wimbledon-Clapham J-Sloane Sq-Knightsbridge-Paddington

Vic line to Wanstead via Whipps Cross Hospital and take over the Hainault loop round to Woodford would make more sense, although you'd possibly run into a signalling issue from Roding Valley to Woodford on the section shared with the Central. Ilford/Leytonstone are already relatively easily connected to Walthamstow by the GOBLIN Overground.

West Croydon down Brixton Hill and Streatham High Rd wouldn't be a terrible idea - very intensive bus service along this section and plenty of useful interchanges.

Agreed on the Northern line plans, although Mill Hill East to Mill Hill Broadway (mainline) and High Barnet to Potters Bar would be a good idea.

 

[Cross City]

Vic line to Wanstead via Whipps Cross Hospital and take over the Hainault loop round to Woodford would make more sense, although you'd possibly run into a signalling issue from Roding Valley to Woodford on the section shared with the Central. Ilford/Leytonstone are already relatively easily connected to Walthamstow by the GOBLIN Overground.

Just seems wild to me that the end of the Vic is less than 2 miles away from the Central Line yet there's no interchange except for Oxford Circus.

If you're at Blackhorse Road and want to get to Stratford you can either make an above ground connection from the Overground at Leytonstone HR - Leytonstone or Wanstead Park - Forest Gate. Or if the Vic was extended a mile and a half there could be an easy in station connection at Leytonstone.

I'm not a local but north south journeys in East London just seem a bit of a pain. Could be an argument for a Lewisham-Woolwich-North Greenwich-LCY-Upton Park-Forest Gate-Leytonstone-Walthamstow line, or from LCY following the North Circular to Redbridge?

 

[PTR 444]

If starting from scratch (let’s say in the 1890s), I would have built the Piccadilly line north and west of Holborn as two separate lines. The Piccadilly would be the line to the west, while east of Holborn it would continue beneath Clerkenwell Road and end up in the Shoreditch area. The Piccadilly Line north of Holborn would be known as the Strand Line, which would continue south through Aldwych and beneath the Thames to Waterloo before following the A23 corridor to Croydon.

I’d also have kept the two branches of the Northern Line as two separate lines, with the Hampstead & Highgate Railway (Charing Cross branch) going to Westminster, Vauxhall, Stockwell and Brixton rather than Waterloo and Kennington. Assuming the later arrival of the Victoria Line still went ahead, I would have sent that to Chelsea, Putney Bridge and Wimbledon (taking over the District Line branch) rather than Brixton.

 

[adamedwards]

Join up Oakwood on the Picc to Totteridge and Whetstone in the northern with a bridge/tunnel moving walkway connecting with Oakleigh Park on the ECML. Saves going into London and back out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2023 ==

Join up Oakwood on the Picc to Totteridge and Whetstone in the northern with a bridge/tunnel moving walkway connecting with Oakleigh Park on the ECML. Saves going into London and back out.

 

[Cross City]

Join up Oakwood on the Picc to Totteridge and Whetstone in the northern with a bridge/tunnel moving walkway connecting with Oakleigh Park on the ECML. Saves going into London and back out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Sep 2023 ==

Join up Oakwood on the Picc to Totteridge and Whetstone in the northern with a bridge/tunnel moving walkway connecting with Oakleigh Park on the ECML. Saves going into London and back out.

That's like 5 miles.

Buses exist.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Metropolitan line extension from Aldgate to Charlton, taking over the Greenwich line, a few forums mooted this a decade ago

If not that, extend the Bakerloo line to Charlton via Greenwich and to Dartford via Bexleyheath

 

[adamedwards]

That's like 5 miles.

Buses exist.

It's a fantasy thread!
You should see how bad the traffic is and how slow the buses are.
I'm well aware its completely unrealistic, but the thread is inviting crazy ideas, which is good, as sometimes crazy ideas turn out to be usefully radical.

 

[MPW]

DLR to Kidbrooke as proposed by greenwich a while back, then elevated over a2213 and a20 and past the sidings to Grove Park > bromley north > kentisg way to bromley South.

Maybe needs a short tunnel between Lee area and Grove park

In addition to connecting to stratford international line as proposed by greenwich for 6 tph, to also go via custom House and new extension to barking via a1020

 

[greatkingrat]

It's a fantasy thread!
You should see how bad the traffic is and how slow the buses are.
I'm well aware its completely unrealistic, but the thread is inviting crazy ideas, which is good, as sometimes crazy ideas turn out to be usefully radical.

If you are going to build a link, New Southgate - Arnos Grove would be more realistic.

 

[BrianW]

The former LT has plan chests full of worthy, let alone fantasy, ideas- as featured by Timmy Dunn in one of his TV visits to the Museum depot at Acton.

Route115- I'd be interested to hear more about your Hyde Park 'Central London Hauptbahnhof idea_ It sounds like a topic for a thesis (but then I have written a thesis on building a single London terminal - conclusion, not really practicable, but definately so in a fantasy world)

I would imagine TfL would have an interest in the Heineken Line- reaching the parts that other line do not reach

They have been 'on the case' for some time regarding connectivity, eg at West Hampstead and Kenton as shown on current tube maps.

 

[Helvellyn]

I'll go with modifying existing lines.

Re-organise subsurface lines:

• Link London, Tilbury and Southend Line with Metropolitan/Chiltern lines, latter going into tunnel at Neasden. Puts Aylesbury/Amersham, Chesham and Watford services into a Crossrail type service avoiding terminations at Baker Street and leaves only Uxbridge services needing to use the flat junction there (and Fenchurch Street can be redeveloped).
• Metropolitan Line becomes Uxbridge/Hammersmith to Barking.
• Wimbledon-Edgware Road service extended to Aldgate, either branded Wimbledon & City or Metric Line (METropolitan distRICt), taking on the Pink line colour previously used by Hammersmith & City.
• District branch to Ealing Broadway swapped with Piccadilly to Uxbridge so that District Line is Uxbridge/Richmond/Wimbledon to Upminster.

Split Northern Line with some extensions:

• Bank Branch resurrects City & South London name, running Morden to Mill Hill East, but extended to Edgware via Mill Hill (The Hale) by resurrecting part of the Northern Heights scheme. Build another Northern Heights extension from Highgate to to Alexandra Palace via Cranley Gardens and Muswell Hill.
  • Makes City & South London Line run Morden to Edgware (via Mill Hill East)/Alexandra Palace. Line colour would be light orange previously used by East London Line.
• Charing Cross Branch retains Northern Line name. Extend from Battersea Power Station to Clapham Junction via Battersea Park and Battersea. At Northern end runs to Edgware via Hampstead but build a new line in tunnel from Golders Green to Finchley Central (approx along A598) and take over High Barnet branch.
  • Makes Northern Line run Clapham Junctio to Edgware (via Hampstead) and High Barnet.
• Interchanges between City & South London Lines would be Kennington, Euston, Camden Town and Finchley Central (Edgware via Mill Hill and High Barnet branches respectively).

Piccadilly Line division at Holborn:

• West of Holborn would remain the Piccadilly Line whilst East the 'new' line would run to Angel then pick up the proposed Chelsea-Hackney Line route to Leytonstone (new stations at Essex Road, Dalston, Hackney Central and Homerton) before taking over the Central Line to Epping.
  • As mentioned above for sub-surface the Uxbridge branch would be swapped with the District to serve Ealing Broadway instead and allow more services to Heathrow, so the line would be Heathrow/Ealing Broadway to Epping.
• North of Holborn the Piccadilly Line would still run to Cockfosters, whilst South of Holborn it would see the branch to Aldwych reopened then extended to Kingston via Temple, Waterloo, Pimlico, Battersea Park, Imperial Wharf, East Putney, Roehampton and Kingston University.
  • I'd name the line the King's Line in honour of The King, but also because it links King's Cross and Kingston, with the light green originally proposed for Chelsea-Hackney as the line colour.

Docklands Light Railway

• Close Tower Gateway and route everything to Bank with new underground interchange station at Tower Hill.
• Extend beyond Bank following part of never built Fleet Line extension to serve Ludgate Circus (connection to City Thameslink), Aldwych, Charing Cross (closed Jubilee Line platforms) and Green Park via a loop line (using as much of old Jubilee tunnels as possible).

 

[Irascible]

Build another Northern Heights extension from Highgate to to Alexandra Palace via Cranley Gardens and Muswell Hill.

Would seem a decent idea to build even more of the NH plan & take that to Finsbury Park - would that even have to be a tube line?. Would be nice if it connected to the NLL directly rather than an extra change but I can't think of a sane way to do it. You don't *really* need all those walls at Canonbury, right...