Fantasy: Could GWR use Euston permanently?

[JamieL]

Its a shame this route couldn't be normalised and Paddington could be ditched altogether.

 

[Horizon22]

Its a shame this route couldn't be normalised and Paddington could be ditched altogether.

Why? Euston (nor the diversionary route) does not have the capacity to support all GWR's trains.

 

[JonathanH]

Its a shame this route couldn't be normalised and Paddington could be ditched altogether.

For what purpose? There are many who say that using Euston is not a great experience for it's passengers, and it takes much longer to get from Reading to Euston rather than Reading to Paddington.

 

[Falcon1200]

It would have been wonderful if instead of going to Paddington, the GWR had built their terminus next door to Euston. But that opportunity has long since been lost!

 

[Transilien]

I think it was the original intention of the GWR to do so, but it was scrapped in favour of Paddington (I forget why).

 

[JamieL]

Why? Euston (nor the diversionary route) does not have the capacity to support all GWR's trains.

I get the capacity issues and practicalities as to why it can never happen. However, Paddington is in the middle of nowhere. I always joke that upon arrival in Paddington, I then have to walk or tube into London proper. Perhaps it is just me, but whether for business or leisure, Paddington is just in the wrong place.

 

[Horizon22]

I get the capacity issues and practicalities as to why it can never happen. However, Paddington is in the middle of nowhere. I always joke that upon arrival in Paddington, I then have to walk or tube into London proper. Perhaps it is just me, but whether for business or leisure, Paddington is just in the wrong place.

Always amazed when people say a Zone 1 sation a short walking distance to Hyde Park or Oxford St is "in the middle of nowhere"!

 

[HSTEd]

Paddington is likely the most remote of the major termini.

Indeed if you draw a circle around the major central London stations, Paddington will be a major driver on the diameter of the circle.

Perhaps if a total Euston reconstruction would occur, but I doubt that capacity would be available otherwise.
If it was done you'd need to build a new access route east of Old Oak Common, so that passengers on the GWML could still access Crossrail directly.

 

[stuu]

Always amazed when people say a Zone 1 sation a short walking distance to Hyde Park or Oxford St is "in the middle of nowhere"!

It is. Only something like 12% of passengers leave on foot, from memory of this discussion in the past

 

[Horizon22]

It's still not the "middle of nowhere"!

 

[stuu]

It's still not the "middle of nowhere"!

Compared to the other major termini it is

 

[etr221]

My comment is that Heathrow Express is a quick route from the edge of 1830's London - where Paddington is - to the edge of 1930s London (Heathrow)

 

[778]

I think it was the original intention of the GWR to do so, but it was scrapped in favour of Paddington (I forget why).

Maybe the difference in guages was why the GWR needed a seperate terminus?

I get the capacity issues and practicalities as to why it can never happen. However, Paddington is in the middle of nowhere. I always joke that upon arrival in Paddington, I then have to walk or tube into London proper. Perhaps it is just me, but whether for business or leisure, Paddington is just in the wrong place.

Was it not possible for the Great Western Railway to get any further into London when it was built, or were there too many buildings in the way, even in the 1800s?

 

[Topological]

Given that there is interchange with HS2 at OOC and most trains from OOC to Euston will have empty seats on them, I cannot see why GWR needs to go anywhere.

I still think we will be seeing many passengers getting off GWR at OOC to transfer to either the Elizabeth Line or Heathrow.

People may be surprised at how useful OOC is in time.

It is really only the British who still have an obsession with getting trains to the centre of cities rather than simply connecting an effective terminal to the metro system. Look at the way China approaches its High Speed network (for example) despite the ability to bulldoze whatever they like. In the case of Beijing and Shanghai, the main central stations are continually downgraded as new out-of-town stations open.

 

[etr221]

The plan back in the 1830s was vary much for the GWR to share the L&B's route from Willesden area into Euston... it influenced both their choices of route in the Willesden-Old Oak-Wormwood Scrubs area, and the original design of Euston station. I think the GW's choice of a different gauge was probably the final straw, the main issue driving the GWR to have its own station was failure of the L&BR to offer an appropriate share of the Euston site on terms acceptable to the GWR.

And 190 years later, far too late to reverse the decision, absent a complete redesign and reconstruction of the railways of inner North West London.

 

[cle]

Paddington is hardly the middle of nowhere. For many, Fenchurch St is also. Or Waterloo, or Victoria. London Bridge used to be a total backwater, even in the 90s.

London is huge, and highly subjective and if you’re headed to many leisure and many business destinations, Paddington is extremely convenient. It’s also now incredibly quick to get across town - but even before you had 4 tube lines. Not difficult.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Always amazed when people say a Zone 1 sation a short walking distance to Hyde Park or Oxford St is "in the middle of nowhere"!

You're right that Paddington is a short walking distance to Hyde Park. But that's not saying much considering how far Hyde Park stretches out: Both Notting Hill Gate and High Street Kensington stations are also a very short walking distance to Hyde Park!

But it's about a mile to Marble Arch (the Westernmost end of Oxford Street) and over 1.5 miles to Oxford Circus (more representative of the part of Oxford Street most people are likely to want to get to). I'm not sure that counts as 'short walking distance'!

I wonder if Paddington would have seemed more central in times past? After all, in the last few decades the centre of gravity in London has shifted East, with Canary Wharf now feeling in many ways like part of the business centre of London.

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder if Paddington would have seemed more central in times past? After all, in the last few decades the centre of gravity in London has shifted East, with Canary Wharf now feeling in many ways like part of the business centre of London.

A lot of office construction in Paddington Basin as well. The reality is that employment is not concentrated in just one place, even if certain sectors do agglomerate together.

 

[317 forever]

It would have been wonderful if instead of going to Paddington, the GWR had built their terminus next door to Euston. But that opportunity has long since been lost!

It's obviously way too late for this, but with both GWR and HS2 due to call at Old Oak Common, it could otherwise have been an idea to divert GWR but not Heathrow Express services to Euston, and GWR services to Paddington.

 

[The Planner]

It's obviously way too late for this, but with both GWR and HS2 due to call at Old Oak Common, it could otherwise have been an idea to divert GWR but not Heathrow Express services to Euston, and GWR services to Paddington.

That doesnt make sense?

 

[317 forever]

That doesnt make sense?

Sorry, typo. I meant that it might have been an idea to divert GWR services but not Heathrow Express to Euston, and HS2 services to Paddington.

Almost certainly not feasible now though.

 

[The Planner]

Sorry, typo. I meant that it might have been an idea to divert GWR services but not Heathrow Express to Euston, and HS2 services to Paddington.

Almost certainly not feasible now though.

Euston couldn't accomodate that as the released capacity gets back filled on the WCML.

 

[Russel]

People may be surprised at how useful OOC is in time.

It is really only the British who still have an obsession with getting trains to the centre of cities rather than simply connecting an effective terminal to the metro system. Look at the way China approaches its High Speed network (for example) despite the ability to bulldoze whatever they like. In the case of Beijing and Shanghai, the main central stations are continually downgraded as new out-of-town stations open.

You make some good points here and I've often thought that OOC would make a better terminus for HS2 that Euston, in certain ways...

Euston Underground is already a crowded mess, HS2 is only going to generate more passengers to funnel through Euston Underground, with OOC, you have the Elizabeth line that can connect you to most of central London with 1 change onto the tube.

 

[Transilien]

Euston Underground is already a crowded mess, HS2 is only going to generate more passengers to funnel through Euston Underground, with OOC, you have the Elizabeth line that can connect you to most of central London with 1 change onto the tube.

Then Crossrail will have the same problem. It’s better to filter passengers through both rather than just one station.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Could Euston be used as a diversion during disruption,a derailment at Paddington for example. Even a limited service would be better than turning everything around at Reading. Its just a shame GWR never taught their drivers the route instead of choosing the option to have them conducted.

 

[Failed Unit]

I am not sure if any of the London Terminals are that good for central London on foot. (I know it also depends where you want to go). Charing Cross is probably the best.

Kings Cross / St Pancras and Euston (To a degree) have good tube connections. But now Cross Rail is open I would argue that Paddington has a better distribution of destinations then Euston. The Bakerloo covers most of the tourist areas The circle did already cover ”The City” but the Elizabeth line does it much better.

I remember someone with some Crayon‘s a few years ago suggesting running a Heathrow - Gatwick services on existing lines via Hendon (some of which would need electrification) As a big surprise it didn’t get of the paper.

 

[VItraveller]

There’s obviously a huge benefit to having access to more than one London terminal, Oxford Bedford and to an extent Birmingham are all fortunate in that respect so I think it would be a good idea in the longer run if some GWR trains from South Wales or Bristol could terminate Euston, in case the Reading to Paddington section is ever blocked.

 

[A S Leib]

As an alternative to Euston during engineering works, is there any more capacity into Waterloo? I don't think the pre-Covid Hounslow loop Richmond services have made a return since, although that's space for 2 tph when there's normally ~10 tph from Reading and west terminating at Paddington (2 each from Didcot, Oxford / Malvern, Cardiff / Swansea, Bristol / Weston-super-Mare, Devon / Cornwall).

 

[Failed Unit]

As an alternative to Euston during engineering works, is there any more capacity into Waterloo? I don't think the pre-Covid Hounslow loop Richmond services have made a return since, although that's space for 2 tph when there's normally ~10 tph from Reading and west terminating at Paddington (2 each from Didcot, Oxford / Malvern, Cardiff / Swansea, Bristol / Weston-super-Mare, Devon / Cornwall).

Wasn‘t Waterloo preferred in the past, but they needed HSTs with certain coupler because of the 3rd rail.

Can the IEP access Waterloo (ie it doesn’t have a problem on 3rd rail areas,

They would certainly thin out the local services if needed, the great northern service often gets trimmed if they are using the Hertford Loops into kings cross.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Wasn‘t Waterloo preferred in the past, but they needed HSTs with certain coupler because of the 3rd rail.

Can the IEP access Waterloo (ie it doesn’t have a problem on 3rd rail areas,

They would certainly thin out the local services if needed, the great northern service often gets trimmed if they are using the Hertford Loops into kings cross.

HSTs over 3rd rail require short swing link bogies.
IETs were tested into Waterloo,presumably they were route cleared.