family railcard question

[truckman060473]

my son (aged 7) lives 20 miles away and i make a weekend journey taking him home sunday evening. (ex partner brings him down Fri evening). I bought a railcard after asking a guard if one could be used to make this trip and he said yes as there are situations like this. the woman at the ticket booth thinks differently and says "i don't think so sir". the normal fare was £6.70 for me and £3.35 for my son. the railcard fare is £4.45 for me and £1.30 for him. on the outward journey the guard comes and stamps our tickets as normal. on the return journey i obviously do not travel with my son as i have dropped him off. 8 weeks of making this journey has passed where the guard never came to check the ticket and i'm wondering if i could be ever told my ticket is invalid because my son is not travelling with me. i have asked a further 3 guards when i alighted at my home town station about the situation and all said in a similar fashion - "can't see a problem with that mate". so can i just relax and forget about it or is the journey i make not allowed really and it's just a question of if a guard is a right jobsworth and charges me a full single fare when going back?

 

[ChrisTheRef]

I think she may be right as you'd be travelling alone on the return leg

 

[First class]

Do the T+Cs specify that the child must be with you, or just that you must hold a child ticket?

 

[Helvellyn]

In situations like this, where you are travelling out and back to take your son home, you are allowed to still get your Family Railcard discount, even though your son is not with you on the return journey.

If you were taking him one day, staying somewhere, then coming back on your own on another day that would be a different matter.

I'd advise contacting the Customer Service Centre of the TOC who are travelling with. Explain the situation, and the journey you make. They may be able to send you a letter that confirms that in this specific circumstance the rules of the Railcard permit an exception to having a child with you (on part of the journey).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do the T+Cs specify that the child must be with you, or just that you must hold a child ticket?

T&Cs specificy a child must be with the holder, except in the circumstance above. Minimum of one named adult and one child must travel for the railcard to normally be valid, up to a maximum of four adults (one of whom must be named on the railcard) and four children.

 

[truckman060473]

well you are supposed to travel with a child and i do on the outward journey but on the return i possess mine and his return ticket. one of my return trains was a FGW service and the guard never asked me to show a ticket and when i approached him to see what he had to say, as FGW guards can be quite keen, he said in quite a reasonable way; "it is sort of ok, just explain the situation about the journey you are making to a guard that asks you and there should be no problem". so far i'm just going by word of mouth. i have saved over £40 so far, it's just very odd why on a non-barrier station where anyone can board the train that they do not check the tickets on my way back

 

[Helvellyn]

well you are supposed to travel with a child and i do on the outward journey but on the return i possess mine and his return ticket.

I'd definitely speak to someone in FGW's customer service department. I'm not sure you even need to buy a return ticket for your son in this instance. As I haven't got the information to hand I can't say one way or the other for definite.

 

[nedchester]

In situations like this, where you are travelling out and back to take your son home, you are allowed to still get your Family Railcard discount, even though your son is not with you on the return journey.

If you were taking him one day, staying somewhere, then coming back on your own on another day that would be a different matter.

I'd advise contacting the Customer Service Centre of the TOC who are travelling with. Explain the situation, and the journey you make. They may be able to send you a letter that confirms that in this specific circumstance the rules of the Railcard permit an exception to having a child with you (on part of the journey).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


T&Cs specificy a child must be with the holder, except in the circumstance above. Minimum of one named adult and one child must travel for the railcard to normally be valid, up to a maximum of four adults (one of whom must be named on the railcard) and four children.

Can't see that here:

http://www.familyandfriends-railcard.co.uk/buy-family-friends-railcard/railcard-terms-conditions

 

[truckman060473]

what bugs me is that if you were travelling alone and used the railcard wrongly by buying a ticket for 1 adult + i junior to save a couple of quid i would fully understand the guard not accepting the ticket. when i buy the tickets to get my son home, the guard on the return leg, however, has no idea that there was indeed a child with me on the way up and may come to the conclusion that i am mis-using the railcard. i never attempt to use my railcard if i'm travelling by myself on the whole journey.

 

[blacknight]

There is a clause thats not widely published whereby it is permitted to travel on family railcard minus a child, ie taking child to & from boarding school for instance.
For revenue protection this wont be published on railcard leaflet as every Tom Dick & harry would be trying it on.
Suggest you have a word with ticket office manager who should be able to put you right-maybe you will need to provide documentry proof ie solicitor letter regards to visiting rights.

 

[theblackwatch]

Can't see that here:

http://www.familyandfriends-railcard.co.uk/buy-family-friends-railcard/railcard-terms-conditions

This is a rule I've not heard of either. Helvellyn, can you provide the source of this rule please as everything I can find says To enable discounted tickets to be used the minimum group is at least one child and one named Railcard holder?

 

[scrapy]

I have never heard of this rule either and the revenue training I have received states an adult and a child must be travelling. Otherwise how do you distinguish between someone who is misusing the ticket and someone who did have a child with them?

I thought the purpose of family railcards was to promote leisure travel (journeys which may not be made normally, and therefore increasing revenue), so journeys to and from boarding school would need to be made so it is not in the TOCs interest to promote lower fares. Similarly 16-25 railcards have a minimum fare before 10am. This means that they are useless for commmuting to college but encourage students to maybe make extra trips home to family at weekends increasing a TOCs revenue.

 

[John @ home]

In situations like this, where you are travelling out and back to take your son home, you are allowed to still get your Family Railcard discount, even though your son is not with you on the return journey.

Can't see that here:

http://www.familyandfriends-railcard.co.uk/buy-family-friends-railcard/railcard-terms-conditions

This is a rule I've not heard of either.

I have never heard of this rule either

I have heard of a similar, but not identical, rule to the one mentioned by the OP and Helvellyn. The last printed National Fares Manual contained:

Family Railcard
Special conditions
When a child/children travel one leg of a return journey only, the adult’s ticket must be an undiscounted return ticket of the type available with the Family Railcard and the child’s single ticket should have the child’s Family Railcard discount applied.

When the printed NFMs ceased this rule did not appear in the replacement CDs and has disappeared from the public domain. I don't know whether it still appears in internal rail industry documentation.

Note that, with this rule, the OP would need to buy an undiscounted adult return ticket at £6.70, but would be able to obtain a discounted child single ticket, presumably at £1.30 or a little less.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I have heard of a similar, but not identical, rule to the one mentioned by the OP and Helvellyn. The last printed National Fares Manual contained:When the printed NFMs ceased this rule did not appear in the replacement CDs and has disappeared from the public domain. I don't know whether it still appears in internal rail industry documentation.

Note that, with this rule, the OP would need to buy an undiscounted adult return ticket at £6.70, but would be able to obtain a discounted child single ticket, presumably at £1.30 or a little less.

I have no idea where all these tales have come from which say that the OP's situation is OK, because it isn't.

When using the Family railcard, the adult MUST be travelling with a child at all times if he has a discounted ticket.

The situation described above is correct. If you are travelling with a child for one direction only, then the adult must hold an undiscounted ticket at full price, but they can purchase a railcard discounted single ticket for the child.

This is clearly stated in the railcard rules in the current fares manual. I cannot copy and paste it now as I am on my mobile, but rest assured if Guards were doing their jobs correctly, you would be charged for a new ticket. If Revenue were around, as I witnesed once, then the consequences could be more severe!

 

[nedchester]

I have no idea where all these tales have come from which say that the OP's situation is OK, because it isn't.

When using the Family railcard, the adult MUST be travelling with a child at all times if he has a discounted ticket.

The situation described above is correct. If you are travelling with a child for one direction only, then the adult must hold an undiscounted ticket at full price, but they can purchase a railcard discounted single ticket for the child.

This is clearly stated in the railcard rules in the current fares manual. I cannot copy and paste it now as I am on my mobile, but rest assured if Guards were doing their jobs correctly, you would be charged for a new ticket. If Revenue were around, as I witnesed once, then the consequences could be more severe!

Which is what I thought. I asked awhile back about getting a full price Cheshire Day Ranger and a FAM child Cheshire Day Ranger to travel with my son during the day and then using it later on in the evening on my own. Consensus of opinion seemed to be that was OK???