False details and old ticket

[PermitToTravel]

Assuming that nothing has happened since October like your address changing, then I wouldn't really worry about it. There are many threads on this forum where Northern have taken longer that you have already waited to get back to people.

The ball is still in their court, and they still have time in which to start criminal proceedings, if they wish to do that. My advice would just be to continue patiently awaiting a response

 

[DaveNewcastle]

My advice would just be to continue patiently awaiting a response

Yes. Lots of patience is required.

Northern are suffering incidences of apparent fare evasion of an almost epidemic proportion. It takes a lot of time to trawl through all the details of all those passengers-without-a-valid-ticket, but I'm sure they will, eventually.

 

[RickyG]

Thank you both for your responses.

What's got me worried though, and I probably should've mentioned this in the post previously, was that I was speaking to another student at Uni who had a similar incident, however on a different line etc and they've had a letter from NR, responded, and then had a fine sent back and her offence was about a month after mine.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Yes, but for the reasons I mentioned, Northern have an overwhelming workload at present. Your reply suggests that the advice from Fahad and myself to 'be patient' is something which you haven't yet adopted. I strongly recommend it to you.

 

[petergriffin12]

How long do these companies have to file a prosecution? I know someone who had an event back in the summer (May/June time) who received an initial letter but had nothing ever since they replied back.

 

[PermitToTravel]

How long do these companies have to file a prosecution? I know someone who had an event back in the summer (May/June time) who received an initial letter but had nothing ever since they replied back.

Criminal proceedings must be formally started within six months of the date of the offence for most railway offences (certainly all ticketing offences).

 

[EC02]

Criminal proceedings must be formally started within six months of the date of the offence for most railway offences (certainly all ticketing offences).

Do you mean if the rail company did not send a letter either summon to court or letter requesting an explanation within six months of the date of the offence that a criminal proceeding can not be conducted?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Do you mean if the rail company did not send a letter either summon to court or letter requesting an explanation within six months of the date of the offence that a criminal proceeding can not be conducted?

Not quite. The period of six months is the time in which the information is brought to the Court (not to the alleged offender), beginning with the date of the alleged offence. The Court may take more time to find a date for a Hearing and to issue a Summons.

However, there is a tendency on this forum to refer to this 'six months' as if it is an immutable barrier to prosecution. It is not. There are plenty matters which can be brought to Court more than six months after the incident, though simple railway fare irregularities are unlikely to be among them.

 

[EC02]

Thanks a lot for your reply

 

[PermitToTravel]

For example, they could still possibly prosecute you for fraud, depending on what exactly happened.

 

[EC02]

For example, they could still possibly prosecute you for fraud, depending on what exactly happened.

For OP's situation, can it be classed as fraud?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

For OP's situation, can it be classed as fraud?

Not paying the fare? Presenting an expired ticket? False name or address? Yes, it can be classed as fraud.

It probably won't be, but it could.

 

[petergriffin12]

The offence in question i was on about what an adult with a child ticket. A lot of arguments between him and the Revenue bloke. Took them 3 months to send an initial letter, he replied, and never heard back. The incident took place June 2013, so now over 8 months ago. Got lucky i guess.

 

[bb21]

The offence in question i was on about what an adult with a child ticket. A lot of arguments between him and the Revenue bloke. Took them 3 months to send an initial letter, he replied, and never heard back. The incident took place June 2013, so now over 8 months ago. Got lucky i guess.

It is possible that an administrative error meant that they ran out of time to lodge the case in court.

 

[RickyG]

Right, I've received a summons through the post (to my surprise as it didn't look very professional and had been shoved through the letter box). Although the fact that they were taking their time did have me worried?

What left can I do?

My letter obviously didn't work, can I write to the court/NR again or am I fighting a losing battle?

Also, what terms do i need to look for on the letter to understand the severity of what it is they're doing me for?

Ta.

 

[bb21]

Does it say under what legislation you are being prosecuted?

 

[RickyG]

Two sheets, one is S.5(3)A and second is C?

Assuming that's what you meant?

Cheers for the reply btw.

 

[bb21]

Section 5.3 is a charge under the Regulation of Railways Act, so this is serious. You will need to try and keep this out of court if you don't want the potential for a criminal record I'm afraid.

 

[RickyG]

Thought so, ffs :roll:

What can I do, what should my next steps be?

Also, what would the CR come under?

 

[bb21]

Have you tried ringing Northern and discussing this matter over the phone? In your situation I don't think you have much to lose by doing that. It may work discussing it with a human in real time. Some people have reported that working previously so it is worth a try.

As to your second question, I am not entirely sure so I will leave it to someone else more specialised in legal matters to answer.

 

[RickyG]

Have you tried ringing Northern and discussing this matter over the phone? In your situation I don't think you have much to lose by doing that. It may work discussing it with a human in real time. Some people have reported that working previously so it is worth a try.

As to your second question, I am not entirely sure so I will leave it to someone else more specialised in legal matters to answer.

I rang them after the incident and the lady on the phone said not too worry as it was my first offence?

I will give it another go though.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Yes, it is probably still worth considering a call to the Prosecutions Manager to try to reach a settlement which saves them any further time and expense.

You are likely to get a higher chance of success if you ask a solicitor from a local law firm to make the call on your behalf, as they can hint at the possibility of representing you in court and, by pleading Not Guilty, incur the additional cost of Witnesses and preparing Evidence.

Even if that fails, you can still ask the solicitor to represent you in Court even if you plea Guilty so that they can do their best to argue grounds for mitigation, which, depending on your circumstances, might be to do with your ability to pay.

If found Guilty, then the S5.3 Offence will be on your Criminal Record for 5 years and, as a crime of dishonesty, would show on a Criminal Record check in advance of taking on any cash-handling role.

 

[455driver]

Right, I've received a summons through the post ( had been shoved through the letter box).

How else would you expect it to be delivered?
Carrier Pigeon?

 

[RickyG]

Yes, it is probably still worth considering a call to the Prosecutions Manager to try to reach a settlement which saves them any further time and expense.

You are likely to get a higher chance of success if you ask a solicitor from a local law firm to make the call on your behalf, as they can hint at the possibility of representing you in court and, by pleading Not Guilty, incur the additional cost of Witnesses and preparing Evidence.

Even if that fails, you can still ask the solicitor to represent you in Court even if you plea Guilty so that they can do their best to argue grounds for mitigation, which, depending on your circumstances, might be to do with your ability to pay.

If found Guilty, then the S5.3 Offence will be on your Criminal Record for 5 years and, as a crime of dishonesty, would show on a Criminal Record check in advance of taking on any cash-handling role.

Thank you for your response Dave.

Regarding the Not Guilty plea, I've already admitted my mistake(s) in the response letter to NR and therefore in doing so, admitted I am guilty?

As for the S5.3, with it being two (a & c), will they appear separately, or as one, if I were to be found guilty? And would these only appear just on cash-handling roles?

Thanks, once again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How else would you expect it to be delivered?
Carrier Pigeon?

With it being of some importance I'd have at least expected to sign for it?

Anyone could have got hold of it?

 

[island]

5 (3) (a) is intentionally avoiding payment of a rail fare and (c) is giving false details.3

I would politely suggest that the manner of delivery of your summons is the least of your worries.

 

[RickyG]

You are likely to get a higher chance of success if you ask a solicitor from a local law firm to make the call on your behalf, as they can hint at the possibility of representing you in court and, by pleading Not Guilty, incur the additional cost of Witnesses and preparing Evidence.

Even if that fails, you can still ask the solicitor to represent you in Court even if you plea Guilty so that they can do their best to argue grounds for mitigation, which, depending on your circumstances, might be to do with your ability to pay.

Sorry to be a mithering pain

I've had a look online and there's some firms that specialise in this sort of thing, however i'm assuming they'll be very expensive.

Now, as a student, I have very little money as you are probably aware, but I could take out an o/d or loan to cover any costs if these firms are more likely to get a result.

I could probably get one through Uni though but if there's less chance of a positive outcome I'd rather fork out the extra?

 

[island]

A lot of this depends on what your desired outcome is.

 

[RickyG]

A lot of this depends on what your desired outcome is.

I really, really don't want a CR.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I've had a look online and there's some firms that specialise in this sort of thing, however i'm assuming they'll be very expensive.

Yes. About £4k for a single court appearance (and preparation). With no guarantee (they'd prefer to have been involved before you sent your written statement to the Company). Some 'specialists' could charge up to twice that amount.

. . . . but if there's less chance of a positive outcome I'd rather fork out the extra?

I think I've already given you advice on this, appropriate to your situation. Go to a local law firm and ask for a solicitor who specialises in general Criminal Defence work (shoplifting, violence etc.). They will not require much knowledge of Railway legislation or case law, but they will need to know how to argue for their client's mitigation. More to the point, they will be familiar with the sort of negotiation I proposed to you only this morning, how to negotiate with the Railway Prosecutor an outcome which benefits the Company (but to do that most successfully, they will need the trump card that you might be pleading Not Guilty and calling witnesses) and which minimises your exposure to costs. They will have experience of negotiating like this on behalf of clients who don't have the means to pay hefty fines and costs. In fact, the most successful solicitor might be from the small local firm in a particularly poor area of town, where petty crime and poverty are very familiar to them.

That local firm is likely to charge you £200 - £400 or £600 - £900 if it goes to Court.

However, the fraudulent element of having provided a false address is not going to go away, and you will have to be prepared for a conviction, no matter how much you pay a solicitor.

 

[RickyG]

Yes. About £4k for a single court appearance (and preparation). With no guarantee (they'd prefer to have been involved before you sent your written statement to the Company). Some 'specialists' could charge up to twice that amount.

I think I've already given you advice on this, appropriate to your situation. Go to a local law firm and ask for a solicitor who specialises in general Criminal Defence work (shoplifting, violence etc.). They will not require much knowledge of Railway legislation or case law, but they will need to know how to argue for their client's mitigation. More to the point, they will be familiar with the sort of negotiation I proposed to you only this morning, how to negotiate with the Railway Prosecutor an outcome which benefits the Company (but to do that most successfully, they will need the trump card that you might be pleading Not Guilty and calling witnesses) and which minimises your exposure to costs. They will have experience of negotiating like this on behalf of clients who don't have the means to pay hefty fines and costs. In fact, the most successful solicitor might be from the small local firm in a particularly poor area of town, where petty crime and poverty are very familiar to them.

That local firm is likely to charge you £200 - £400 or £600 - £900 if it goes to Court.

However, the fraudulent element of having provided a false address is not going to go away, and you will have to be prepared for a conviction, no matter how much you pay a solicitor.

Correct Dave, looking at £3K+ with the first firm I mentioned, like you said, they also said I've not got no chance really after admitting my guilt in the reply letter (which you also mentioned).

I'm going to contact a couple of local ones over the next day or two see what they have to say but it's not looking too good at all.

Worst comes to worse, which is looking likely, this goes to court, will my previous 'good' criminal history, play a part at all, or not?

Cheers again.