False destinations on trains from Reading heading towards Paddington

[cholsey-choose]

I can see an argument for having Ealing Broadway (for example) as the headline station on the departure board, but ‘(Train continues to London Paddington)’ at the end of the list of stations.

Something along the lines of

EALING BROADWAY 13.08

Calling at
Twyford
Maidenhead
<snip>
Southall
EALING BROADWAY

(Train continues to London Paddington)

Just covers all eventualities then.

Agreed, or some similar system like that. They do something similar at Oxford. I don't understand why those who favour false destinations in this thread are so dead set against these helpful compromises?

 

[cholsey-choose]

[...]

The marketing claim is not literally and undeniably false - as has been pointed out above by me and others. By using Crossrail it will be possible to reach any point Crossrail serves within central and east London (and beyond) faster from Reading by using Crossrail, even if it involves using GWR first then a change to Crossrail at Paddington - it will always be faster than GWR+Tube is to those places right now.



You seem keen not to absorb anything that anyone has written in response to your posts. So far as I can tell since I last looked yesterday and this point today, your position has not shifted an inch, in spite of anything anyone has said.

I hope you can admit you were wrong about this by the way. I don't know why people find the words "I was wrong" so hard to say or write.

 

[JN114]

Agreed, or some similar system like that. They do something similar at Oxford. I don't understand why those who favour false destinations in this thread are so dead set against these helpful compromises?

I guess there’s no harm in it, but it’s not a comment that can be automatically added, so whoever was working at Oxford station on the day you saw it obviously had plenty of time on their hands to type that in individually on every pertinent train - time that could have equally been spent engaging with customers on the platform and tailoring their helpful attitude to individual needs rather than filling the info screens with inane waffle that literally serves zero purpose.

 

[cholsey-choose]

I guess there’s no harm in it, but it’s not a comment that can be automatically added, so whoever was working at Oxford station on the day you saw it obviously had plenty of time on their hands to type that in individually on every pertinent train - time that could have equally been spent engaging with customers on the platform and tailoring their helpful attitude to individual needs rather than filling the info screens with inane waffle that literally serves zero purpose.

That's why my suggestion is a poster next to the boards, or the use of one of the more general information boards (rotating with see something say something and winter disruption etc) to have a very general message. Just two sentences, something like: "slow local services to London Paddington are listed for Ealing Broadway. Passengers for Paddington should take an express service". What I saw was a more general message like that.

Also maybe I'm being literal minded here, but it's not like it serves literally no purpose. It's just not a purpose that you think will benefit very many people.

 

[JN114]

Also maybe I'm being literal minded here, but it's not like it serves literally no purpose. It's just not a purpose that you think will benefit very many people.

No, it serves zero practical purpose, and further contributes to the massive information overload which is what actually confuses passengers most. Nobody at a station that employs false destinations in this manner needs to know the train carries on beyond the stated destination. If you’re savvy enough to be exploiting the one or two edge cases where travelling beyond the false destination advertised makes sense, then you’re savvy enough to know it’s a false destination without a poster to tell you that.

 

[cholsey-choose]

No, it serves zero practical purpose, and further contributes to the massive information overload which is what actually confuses passengers most. Nobody at a station that employs false destinations in this manner needs to know the train carries on beyond the stated destination. If you’re savvy enough to be exploiting the one or two edge cases where travelling beyond the false destination advertised makes sense, then you’re savvy enough to know it’s a false destination without a poster to tell you that.

Sigh, I've already explained quite a few times a situation in which it contributes to a practical purpose: avoiding newbie travellers from being confused when they get on a train and here that its destination is different from the one listed on the boards, and thinking that they might have gotten on the wrong train. Sure, it's an unusual situation but it did happen to my friends. So a small purpose I admit (adding consistency between the signs and voice announcements in the station, and those ont he train itself), but that's not zero.

 

[JN114]

Sigh, I've already explained quite a few times a situation in which it contributes to a practical purpose: avoiding newbie travellers from being confused when they get on a train and here that its destination is different from the one listed on the boards, and thinking that they might have gotten on the wrong train. Sure, it's an unusual situation but it did happen to my friends. So a small purpose I admit (adding consistency between the signs and voice announcements in the station, and those ont he train itself), but that's not zero.

To quote yourself:

I don't know why people find the words "I was wrong" so hard to say or write.

 

[cholsey-choose]

I pretty clearly and literally said that I was wrong about the crossrail timings in post #71, didn't I?

I don't understand why you would insist that (yes, a small, rare, edge case) purpose is a zero purpose. Here's a sign that would serve literally zero purpose: the current temperature on the moons of Jupiter, or delays on the Beijing-Shanghai rail line. None of those would help anyone at all decide which train to get on at Oxford, Didcot, or Reading. That's zero.

 

[cactustwirly]

Sigh, I've already explained quite a few times a situation in which it contributes to a practical purpose: avoiding newbie travellers from being confused when they get on a train and here that its destination is different from the one listed on the boards, and thinking that they might have gotten on the wrong train. Sure, it's an unusual situation but it did happen to my friends. So a small purpose I admit (adding consistency between the signs and voice announcements in the station, and those ont he train itself), but that's not zero.

But the people using those services, are definately not tourists*!
They are local people, making local services, and are familiar with the local geography, therefore the 'false destinations' shouldn't pose a problem.

*Except passengers heading to Windsor, but there are staff, and 'next fastest train to' boards at Paddington to help with that

 

[cholsey-choose]

But the people using those services, are definately not tourists*!
They are local people, making local services, and are familiar with the local geography, therefore the 'false destinations' shouldn't pose a problem.

*Except passengers heading to Windsor, but there are staff, and 'next fastest train to' boards at Paddington to help with that

FFS do I have to tell my anecdote about foreign visitors coming to visit me in Cholsey again? Sure it's not common but it does happen.

(Edit: sorry about the catty tone, I'm just tired of repeating myself!)

 

[cactustwirly]

FFS do I have to tell my anecdote about foreign visitors coming to visit me in Cholsey again? Sure it's not common but it does happen.

But surely if they were coming from London, they would have taken an express to London, and then changed at Reading?
Or if it was during the evening peak, taken the direct semi-fast, which is actually advertised as 'Didcot Parkway'

 

[MarlowDonkey]

None of those would help anyone at all decide which train to get on at Oxford, Didcot, or Reading.

From time to time, I change to a local service at Reading. I find it easier to spot the platform by looking for "Ealing" on the monitor. It directly filters out all the "Paddington"s.

At Paddington, catching a stopper, it used to be Radley that you looked for as well as Twyford and Cholsey. Bedwyn as well, although that's a real destination rather than a false one.

 

[JN114]

Net Zero then - the insignificant benefit it would afford the minute number of people who have never existed in my 20+ years of using the line, 5 years working for the railway, 2 of which as a CIS controller, but miraculously appeared halfway through this thread to make the OPs argument for them - would be outweighed by the inconvenience caused to people who would now think if they just missed the fast to London at xx01 from Oxford the xx07 would take them to London instead. It would eventually, but it still isn’t the train you want.

The issues it would cause far outweigh the benefits, net benefit - zero.

 

[cholsey-choose]

But surely if they were coming from London, they would have taken an express to London, and then changed at Reading?

I have answered this question before, so I beg you please read the thread. But in answer, no. They knew they had to get to Cholsey, and go via Paddington, so see a train with a listed destination Cholsey, so why not get on it?

Moreover, I often make the same choice: on the stopper from Paddington you can get a seat the whole way to Cholsey, but depending on timings getting on the fast train to Reading either means waiting around at Paddington, or in the cold with inadequate seating at Reading, often to get on the same stopper train you can get on at Paddington! The time difference is often either marginal or zero.

Especially foreign tourists with luggage may choose the certainty and convenience of a marginally slower direct train to having to change.

 

[cholsey-choose]

Net Zero then - the insignificant benefit it would afford the minute number of people who have never existed in my 20+ years of using the line, 5 years working for the railway, 2 of which as a CIS controller, but miraculously appeared halfway through this thread to make the OPs argument for them - would be outweighed by the inconvenience caused to people who would now think if they just missed the fast to London at xx01 from Oxford the xx07 would take them to London instead. It would eventually, but it still isn’t the train you want.

Wait what? If you're going to call me a liar at least come out and say it directly. The conversation will be over but at least it won't be mired in passive aggression.

Also, not to downplay your railway experience which I respect, but 5 years of working for the railway is hardly long enough to pull this I've never seen this in my whole career you must be lying! kind of line.

And how would your people be inconvenienced by my compromise proposal, which is maintaining the use of false destinations, but adding an explanatory poster or board at the stations that use them? Since the major stations which use them all have 'next fastest direct train' boards, how could they be confused in the manner you suggest? The stopper would still be listed as Ealing Broardway.

The issues it would cause far outweigh the benefits, net benefit - zero.

It's a dishonest sleight of hand to switch to *net* benefits. All I'm saying is that there may be some benefit to someone; I'm not denying that the benefits could be outweighed, though I've yet to see a convincing case. Maybe information overload is it.

But in your own terms, you are not describing a zero net benefit. You're describing a net cost, or a negative net benefit.

 

[LAX54]

Unfortunately 'local service' also implies that it doesn't go very far! It's not pretty, but I would go for 'express' and 'non-express'.

or go back to 'Fast', 'Semi-Fast' and 'Slow' ?

 

[FGW_DID]

I started my railway career on the Platforms at Didcot, hence the username, cant remember any complaints about the 'false destination' of Ealing Broadway being used.
I once had a couple ask if they could get to Paddington from Ealing Broadway as they had just missed a Paddington from platform 2. I told them that it did continue onto Padd, but as it was the stopper it took over an hour +, whereas the fasts only stopped at Reading and took around 42 mins. Funny old thing they opted to wait on Platform 2 for the next HST. If the boards had just displayed London Paddington, they might not have asked and would have probably just boarded the stopper and chugged all the way to Paddington.

Why would anybody get upset by getting on the 'Ealing Broadway' and then finding out it was actually continuing to Paddington? If they were going to Paddington anyway would they not have just got on one of the advertised Paddington express services?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do we know of any other countries that use this system?

Much more common to use train classifications - in a regular interval timetable it's easy to know if it's worth boarding the RE or S, or you should wait for the IC, having done it once.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would anybody get upset by getting on the 'Ealing Broadway' and then finding out it was actually continuing to Paddington? If they were going to Paddington anyway would they not have just got on one of the advertised Paddington express services?

It's not that, it's confusion. The unique primary key of a train in the UK, because we don't use train numbers, is the time and destination. Some stations (even major ones) still lack destination displays showing all calling points, Preston for instance. When I was travelling from York to Headingley on the stopper it confused the life out of me that it wasn't shown as the service to Leeds, and I wondered if it was another train.]

Implement train categorisation (Goodness knows why we abandoned it) and use train numbers and it would be less of an issue.

Regarding Crossrail this really shouldn't hide destinations, as (a) it'll be obvious that you're going on Crossrail as you have to go to specific platforms for it, and (b) quite a lot of people will value a direct slow service over a change - otherwise if you went to Bedford you'd see everyone using the EMT to London as it's quicker, and they don't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes I agree. I think we can agree that loop trains are a genuinely unusual circimstance, because depending on when you count the journey as having started, they don't really have a final destination distinct from the originating station! But because they are so odd, most people (even those of us who think false destinations are silly) would agree that something special needs to be done with them.

I'd actually do something *specific* for them as the Tube does for the Circle Line - "Circular via Hounsworth" or similar rather than false destinations. People understand that from buses.

The *only* one I can think where a false destination makes actual sense is where a Merseyrail service runs from Chester to Chester via the Loop, in which case showing a false destination of Liverpool Central makes sense until leaving Hamilton Square on the inbound, because there can be no benefit at all derived from showing it. If, however, it went from Chester to West Kirby via Liverpool I would give consideration to showing that correctly.

 

[Bikeman78]

The difference is the fast and slow Peterborough services are operated by two different companies. Some passengers will have TL/GN Only tickets to Peterborough so need to know that the slow train is going to Peterborough as well.

Fair enough. Were they ever advertised to Huntingdon. There would have been a few years between the electrification to Peterborough and privatisation.

 

[Bookd]

This is standard practice on the circular services from London. For example a train arriving at Richmond may show a destination of Chiswick.or Barnes Bridge. It will continue back to.Waterloo but for points beyond there it would be quicker to take a direct train.

 

[cholsey-choose]

I started my railway career on the Platforms at Didcot, hence the username, cant remember any complaints about the 'false destination' of Ealing Broadway being used.
I once had a couple ask if they could get to Paddington from Ealing Broadway as they had just missed a Paddington from platform 2. I told them that it did continue onto Padd, but as it was the stopper it took over an hour +, whereas the fasts only stopped at Reading and took around 42 mins. Funny old thing they opted to wait on Platform 2 for the next HST. If the boards had just displayed London Paddington, they might not have asked and would have probably just boarded the stopper and chugged all the way to Paddington.

Why would anybody get upset by getting on the 'Ealing Broadway' and then finding out it was actually continuing to Paddington? If they were going to Paddington anyway would they not have just got on one of the advertised Paddington express services?

I could be wrong but I don't think anybody has claimed that anybody would be upset. The issue is more the confusion: thinking you have got on the wrong train, because you wanted to get on a train for Ealing Broadway, but the announcer says it's a train to Paddington.

Another way the issue could be avoided: inside the trains which use false destinations, it is branded as a service to Ealing Broadway and London Paddington. No such confusion then.

 

[cholsey-choose]

I'd actually do something *specific* for them as the Tube does for the Circle Line - "Circular via Hounsworth" or similar rather than false destinations. People understand that from buses.

Though correct me if I'm wrong, but the circle line isn't circular anymore so does this issue arise?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is standard practice on the circular services from London. For example a train arriving at Richmond may show a destination of Chiswick.or Barnes Bridge. It will continue back to.Waterloo but for points beyond there it would be quicker to take a direct train.

It might be quicker, but there are other reasons a passenger may wish to board anyway, and unless they have a routed ticket they will still be valid in most cases. For instance a train in the platform is worth 10 on the departure board, or because it's freezing cold and it's nicer to take a seat on a train than stand on the platform.

TfL do the "circular route" thing spot on with the Circle Line - it needs something specific (Circular via X, maybe with a subtext line of "then London Waterloo") rather than simple false destinations.

 

[Ian Hardy]

There a few SWR examples:
Weybridge via Hounslow services have a destination of Addlestone at Waterloo
Hounslow roundabouts via Brentford & Richmond have a destination of Hounslow between Waterloo and Barnes then they become destination Mortlake until Isleworth and then from Hounslow they are destination Waterloo.
Hounslow roundabouts via Richmond & Brentford have a destination of Hounslow between Waterloo and Barnes then they become destination Chiswick until Whitton and then from Hounslow they are destination Waterloo.
Kingston roundabouts via Wimbledon & Richmond have a destination of Strawberry Hill between Waterloo and Clapham Junction then they become destination Richmond until Norbiton and then from Kingston they are destination Waterloo.
Kingston roundabouts via Richmond & Wimbledon have a destination of Teddington between Waterloo and Clapham Junction then they become destination Wimbledon until Strawberry Hill and then from Teddington they are destination Waterloo.

Also the Northern services between Leeds and York via Harrogate are destination Poppleton at Leeds, and Burley Park at York.

I also remember when the Gatwick Express services were the only services to Victoria at Gatwick Airport, the NSE services were displayed as destination Clapham Junction.

 

[Kite159]

There a few SWR examples:
Weybridge via Hounslow services have a destination of Addlestone at Waterloo
Hounslow roundabouts via Brentford & Richmond have a destination of Hounslow between Waterloo and Barnes then they become destination Mortlake until Isleworth and then from Hounslow they are destination Waterloo.
Hounslow roundabouts via Richmond & Brentford have a destination of Hounslow between Waterloo and Barnes then they become destination Chiswick until Whitton and then from Hounslow they are destination Waterloo.
Kingston roundabouts via Wimbledon & Richmond have a destination of Strawberry Hill between Waterloo and Clapham Junction then they become destination Richmond until Norbiton and then from Kingston they are destination Waterloo.
Kingston roundabouts via Richmond & Wimbledon have a destination of Teddington between Waterloo and Clapham Junction then they become destination Wimbledon until Strawberry Hill and then from Teddington they are destination Waterloo.

Also the Northern services between Leeds and York via Harrogate are destination Poppleton at Leeds, and Burley Park at York.

I also remember when the Gatwick Express services were the only services to Victoria at Gatwick Airport, the NSE services were displayed as destination Clapham Junction.

Another SWR example which springs to mind is the XX:50 Poole - Waterloo stoppers being advertised as Farnborough (Main) at Brockenhurst/Southampton Central/Southampton Airport due to the XX:20 Weymouth - Waterloo services overtaking it at Eastleigh getting punters into London ~15 minute earlier

 

[gallafent]

Though correct me if I'm wrong, but the circle line isn't circular anymore so does this issue arise?

True. I maintain that clockwise circle (spiral) line trains should be advertised as “Edgware Road via Edgware Road” between Hammersmith and their first visit to that station, to avoid confusion

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another SWR example which springs to mind is the XX:50 Poole - Waterloo stoppers being advertised as Farnborough (Main) at Brockenhurst/Southampton Central/Southampton Airport due to the XX:20 Weymouth - Waterloo services overtaking it at Eastleigh getting punters into London ~15 minute earlier

That confused me when I saw it too, though not to the point of making me get on the wrong train - but my first thought was certainly "why is this train terminating short?" rather than "I shouldn't take this one to Waterloo".

Of course, if that one was shown as "Regional" and the fast as "InterCity" or "Express" that would avoid the confusion and people would know properly what was likely to be the case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True. I maintain that clockwise circle (spiral) line trains should be advertised as “Edgware Road via Edgware Road” between Hammersmith and their first visit to that station, to avoid confusion

As noted "Circle Line via Victoria" or whatever is the proper way to do services like this. Or in the Scottish example, "Fife Circle via Glenrothes w/T" or somesuch.