Failure to Pay (incorrect I think)

[OffertonBlue]

On 2nd March. My daughter was travelling to Leeds from Hazel Grove train station (via Piccadilly station). She makes the journey from Hazel Grove or Stockport to Leeds often as a student.

When she went to purchase the ticket at Piccadilly station she forget where she had started the journey and said Hazel Grove instead of Stockport (to Leeds). After purchasing the ticket she was stopped by ticket guards.

Here are my questions: -

We have always found a Standard Off-Peak Return - Hazel Grove to Leeds to be the same ticket price Stockport to Leeds. Can anyone confirm this?

Second if the price is the same; is the offence of "Failure to Pay" correct if she said she got on at Hazel grove instead of Stockport?.

 

[bb21]

Could you explain a bit more as to what happened at Stockport? What conversation took place, and what happened subsequently?

 

[gray1404]

Please do excuse me asking this question, I do not mean any offence at all, but is there a reason why your daughter might have got confused about which station? I am trying to build a picture of what happened?

 

[snail]

Could you explain a bit more as to what happened at Stockport? What conversation took place, and what happened subsequently?

It was at Piccadilly. My question would be to ask why the OP's daughter didn't buy her ticket at Hazel Grove and waited until changing trains at Piccadilly?

 

[OffertonBlue]

Nothing happened at Stockport. We live close to Hazel Grove and Stockport stations and use either, depending on train times. People quite often board the train and either buy a ticket on board or at Piccadilly station. This was her plan.

She boarded at Hazel grove. When she arrived at Piccadilly she was in a rush and went to the ticket person and bought a Standard Off-Peak Return ticket from Stockport to Leeds. After she bought the ticket from one member of staff another took her to one side for questioning. He asked where she got on the train, to which she responded Stockport. Straight away she realised she had made a mistake and she pointed this. However at this point she had already purchased the ticket. Then he claimed that she had been avoiding the fare.

I have a number of issues with Northern Rail about the way she was treated, but that is not the reason for my question. We firmly believe that there was no price difference from either Stockport or Hazel Grove.

 

[6Gman]

On 2nd March. My daughter was travelling to Leeds from Hazel Grove train station (via Piccadilly station). She makes the journey from Hazel Grove or Stockport to Leeds often as a student.

When she went to purchase the ticket at Piccadilly station she forget where she had started the journey and said Hazel Grove instead of Stockport (to Leeds). After purchasing the ticket she was stopped by ticket guards.

Here are my questions: -

We have always found a Standard Off-Peak Return - Hazel Grove to Leeds to be the same ticket price Stockport to Leeds. Can anyone confirm this?

Second if the price is the same; is the offence of "Failure to Pay" correct if she said she got on at Hazel grove instead of Stockport?.

I'm assuming that in your second paragraph you meant to write "said Stockport instead of Hazel Grove"?

 

[OffertonBlue]

Sorry - 6Gman you are correct.

 

[clagmonster]

Assuming the booking office was open at Hazel Grove, your daughter has automatically broken this byelaw:
"18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
16
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey
permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket."
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

It is possible that she has also committed an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act, although I will leave it to those with more expertise to comment on that. Ordinarily, by specifying a short fare like that, I would say she definitely has, but the fact that the fares are the same muddies the water a little in my view. I'm sure somebody will confirm either way.

Could you confirm what paperwork, if any, was given to your daughter by the revenue staff.

 

[gray1404]

Nothing happened at Stockport. We live close to Hazel Grove and Stockport stations and use either, depending on train times. People quite often board the train and either buy a ticket on board or at Piccadilly station. This was her plan.

She boarded at Hazel grove. When she arrived at Piccadilly she was in a rush and went to the ticket person and bought a Standard Off-Peak Return ticket from Stockport to Leeds. After she bought the ticket from one member of staff another took her to one side for questioning. He asked where she got on the train, to which she responded Stockport. Straight away she realised she had made a mistake and she pointed this. However at this point she had already purchased the ticket. Then he claimed that she had been avoiding the fare.

I have a number of issues with Northern Rail about the way she was treated, but that is not the reason for my question. We firmly believe that there was no price difference from either Stockport or Hazel Grove.

Why did your daughter not buy a ticket before boarding the train at Hazel Grove? It is a legal requirement to do so before boarding the train when the facility to buy a ticket exists. According to National Rail Enquiries there is a ticket office open much of the day and also ticket machines? Where these not available on her day of travel?

 

[bb21]

It was at Piccadilly. My question would be to ask why the OP's daughter didn't buy her ticket at Hazel Grove and waited until changing trains at Piccadilly?

I beg your pardon. I did indeed mean Piccadilly rather than Stockport.

 

[najaB]

It is possible that she has also committed an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act, although I will leave it to those with more expertise to comment on that. Ordinarily, by specifying a short fare like that, I would say she definitely has, but the fact that the fares are the same muddies the water a little in my view. I'm sure somebody will confirm either way.

Based on discussion on a similar case it would still be possible to make a RoRA conviction stick.

 

[clagmonster]

Based on discussion on a similar case it would still be possible to make a RoRA conviction stick.

I suppose walking past the open booking office at Hazel Grove still demonstrates in case law that there was intent to avoid payment.

Offerton Blue, may I ask, when your daughter bought the ticket at Piccadilly, did she approach the ticket seller or was it her only option due to a barrier check being in operation?

 

[OffertonBlue]

clagmonster - may I ask, when your daughter bought the ticket at Piccadilly, did she approach the ticket seller or was it her only option due to a barrier check being in operation?

She was on route to Leeds. She had to leave the arrival platform, go out of her way to the entrance to purchase the ticket and then back to the platforms (to continue to Leeds). If she wanted to avoid payment she could have stayed on platforms.

Again I reiterate the fare she paid was no different HG or Stockport.

 

[najaB]

I suppose walking past the open booking office at Hazel Grove still demonstrates in case law that there was intent to avoid payment.

The RoRA prosecution could succeed because the requirement is to pay the fare (or show that the fare has been paid) "from the place whence he started" - so even if the fare is the same Stockport isn't where the journey stsrted.

 

[gray1404]

It would be really helpful if you could start answering the questions people on here are asking and giving full information. I know you feel strongly that the fare from the 2 stations may be the same but it is really important to build up a full picture of everything that happened so you can receive the best advise. So, please do provide additional information, even if you don't think its reliant.

 

[DaleCooper]

It would be really helpful if you could start answering the questions people on here are asking and giving full information. I know you feel strongly that the fare from the 2 stations may be the same but it is really important to build up a full picture of everything that happened so you can receive the best advise. So, please do provide additional information, even if you don't think its reliant.

Don't forget that new members posts can be delayed.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Again I reiterate the fare she paid was no different HG or Stockport.

Have you considered that:

a) He might not have known the two tickets cost the same. It isn't particularly likely he is going to know every fare. All he knew was she gave an incorrect origin

or

b) He might not have believed her -

Where did you start your journey?
Stockport
No you didn't
Oh no, a station where the fare is exactly the same as Stockport

Surely you can see how this could arouse suspicion.

 

[6Gman]

Again I reiterate the fare she paid was no different HG or Stockport.

But I'm not sure that is relevant.

Firstly, because the person who spoke to her may not have known if that was the case or not.

Secondly, because for all he knows she could have come from further afield.

If she walked past an open booking office (or TVM) at Hazel Grove that was a bad idea.
Then failing to approach on-train staff (which would have ruled out intent to avoid the fare) was a further bad idea.
Then saying Stockport when she had actually boarded at Hazel Grove was a very bad idea.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Whether or not the fare from the 2 stations to Leeds are the same or not, it might be helpful to be aware of the basis of the Contract which a passenger enters into with a Railway Company for their travel :

Unlike consumer arrangements where a price could be deemed to have been correctly paid even if the actual goods are swapped for others to the same value, rail travel is a matter of a specifc contract to convey a passenger between two named stations. There is case law to clarify this quite precisely (notwithstanding the conditions which allow holders of some ticket types to be conveyed over only a part of the route between the named stations), and that a person seeking to travel beyond either named station (even if the price is the same, or even lower, than the ticket between those stations) is seeking to travel without a contract which permits them to do so, and is therefore deemed to be intending not to pay the fare for the actual journey taken.
By way of a more obvious, albeit different, example. If I buy a single ticket to be carried from Liverpool to Manchester but actually try to use it to travel in the opposite direction, from Manchester to Liverpool, where the fare is exactly the same, I do not have a contract to be carried. I am evading the actual fare for the actual journey.

I hope this helps.

 

[gray1404]

Whether or not the fare from the 2 stations to Leeds are the same or not, it might be helpful to be aware of the basis of the Contract which a passenger enters into with a Railway Company for their travel :

Unlike consumer arrangements where a price could be deemed to have been correctly paid even if the actual goods are swapped for others to the same value, rail travel is a matter of a specifc contract to convey a passenger between two named stations. There is case law to clarify this quite precisely (notwithstanding the conditions which allow holders of some ticket types to be conveyed over only a part of the route between the named stations), and that a person seeking to travel beyond either named station (even if the price is the same, or even lower, than the ticket between those stations) is seeking to travel without a contract which permits them to do so, and is therefore deemed to be intending not to pay the fare for the actual journey taken.
By way of a more obvious, albeit different, example. If I buy a single ticket to be carried from Liverpool to Manchester but actually try to use it to travel in the opposite direction, from Manchester to Liverpool, where the fare is exactly the same, I do not have a contract to be carried. I am evading the actual fare for the actual journey.

I hope this helps.

So just to clarify, lets say for instance I caught a train from Warrington to Manchester and then on arrival at Manchester I request a ticket from Liverpool to Manchester. Would that be all right? You've still brought a ticket for a journey and it covers the stations between which you've traveled. For this example, lets ignore the requirement to buy a ticket before travel.

(I've sometimes brought a ticket from Southport to Liverpool when in reality I've been doing Formby to Liverpool and then Liverpool to Southport on the return leg for example.)

 

[najaB]

So just to clarify, lets say for instance I caught a train from Warrington to Manchester and then on arrival at Manchester I request a ticket from Liverpool to Manchester. Would that be all right?

Yes, as long as the ticket conditions allow starting short.

 

[OffertonBlue]

DaveNewcastle - Thank you very much for your concise answer. This answers my question perfectly.

All,
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my thread, I very much appreciate your time and assistance.

Best Regards

 

[steve a]

Whether or not the fare from the 2 stations to Leeds are the same or not, it might be helpful to be aware of the basis of the Contract which a passenger enters into with a Railway Company for their travel :

Unlike consumer arrangements where a price could be deemed to have been correctly paid even if the actual goods are swapped for others to the same value, rail travel is a matter of a specifc contract to convey a passenger between two named stations. There is case law to clarify this quite precisely (notwithstanding the conditions which allow holders of some ticket types to be conveyed over only a part of the route between the named stations), and that a person seeking to travel beyond either named station (even if the price is the same, or even lower, than the ticket between those stations) is seeking to travel without a contract which permits them to do so, and is therefore deemed to be intending not to pay the fare for the actual journey taken.
By way of a more obvious, albeit different, example. If I buy a single ticket to be carried from Liverpool to Manchester but actually try to use it to travel in the opposite direction, from Manchester to Liverpool, where the fare is exactly the same, I do not have a contract to be carried. I am evading the actual fare for the actual journey.

I hope this helps.

I have a season ticket from Widnes to Disley but I usually travel Warrington to Stockport. The ticket is the same price as one from Warrington to Stockport.

Sometimes I get the train to Widnes so I qan get on the Scarborough train before it fills up at Warrington. I've caught the train from Hazel Grove instead of Stockport a couple of times, but have never used the train to Disley. Does this mean I'm travelling illegally?

 

[island]

clagmonster - may I ask, when your daughter bought the ticket at Piccadilly, did she approach the ticket seller or was it her only option due to a barrier check being in operation?

She was on route to Leeds. She had to leave the arrival platform, go out of her way to the entrance to purchase the ticket and then back to the platforms (to continue to Leeds). If she wanted to avoid payment she could have stayed on platforms.

Again I reiterate the fare she paid was no different HG or Stockport.

The issue at hand is simpler than this and arguing about fares being the same is not it. When your daughter chose to join the train at Hazel Grove without purchasing a ticket, she committed a criminal offence. This offence is now being investigated to consider what action to take.

Assuming she travelled on Northern Rail and has not come to their attention for previous ticketing irregularities, the most likely outcome is that she will be issued a failure to pay notice with an administrative penalty of £80, plus the fare avoided, if any.

The usual way these cases proceed is that Northern Rail will write to the name and address provided at the scene (which I hope were given accurately) in order to request any further information or mitigation. Until then there is little that can be done.

 

[30907]

I have a season ticket from Widnes to Disley but I usually travel Warrington to Stockport. The ticket is the same price as one from Warrington to Stockport.

Sometimes I get the train to Widnes so I qan get on the Scarborough train before it fills up at Warrington. I've caught the train from Hazel Grove instead of Stockport a couple of times, but have never used the train to Disley. Does this mean I'm travelling illegally?

No it doesn't because it's a season ticket.

Back to the OP. If there had been a revenue block at Hazel Grove when daughter boarded at Stockport, you can see how suspicion might be aroused. Or if it was obvious at Piccadilly that she'd alighted from a train that didn't come from Hazel Grove....
No idea whether either scenario is likely.

 

[OffertonBlue]

Sometimes I get the train to Widnes so I qan get on the Scarborough train before it fills up at Warrington. I've caught the train from Hazel Grove instead of Stockport a couple of times, but have never used the train to Disley. Does this mean I'm travelling illegally?

Sounds to me like you are breaking the law. I also have an example that I now realise I am probably breaking the law. My son lives in London, we go and visit him. If my daughter is coming (from Leeds) I buy 3 tickets - Piccadilly to Euston (because its easier), but my wife and I actually get on the train at Stockport. We actually travel Stockport - Euston return. I guess this is illegal.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . I also have an example that I now realise I am probably breaking the law. My son lives in London, we go and visit him. If my daughter is coming (from Leeds) I buy 3 tickets - Piccadilly to Euston (because its easier), but my wife and I actually get on the train at Stockport. We actually travel Stockport - Euston return. I guess this is illegal.

As I mentioned above, holders of some types of ticket may travel between points on just a sub-section of the route between the stations named on the ticket (actually, the majority of types of ticket allow this, though with complex permutations of restrictions applying I won't give a universal answer) so your travel from Stockport to Euston may be quite permissable. [The most common type of ticket that does not permit this is the cheap 'Advance' tickets, most of which are available for long-distance journeys at a fraction of the cost of a ticket on the day of travel].

This is not the same as the point we were making above concerning your daughter's journey to Leeds, in which the argument for validity was being made solely on the two points that (a) the price paid equals the cost of the ticket for the longer journey, and (b) the journey taken included the entire journey permitted by the ticket. A helpful authority for this point might be Great Western Railway v Pocock (1979) 41 ELR 415 which concerned additional travel at the end of the journey, not the start of the journey, but where he argued that the price would have been the same, but in which the Appeal Court found “when he arrived on his return journey at Westbourne Park, the contract was at an end, and the company had fulfilled their part of the contract, and Pocock was not entitled to travel on to Paddington on the ticket”.

 

[najaB]

Sounds to me like you are breaking the law. I also have an example that I now realise I am probably breaking the law. My son lives in London, we go and visit him. If my daughter is coming (from Leeds) I buy 3 tickets - Piccadilly to Euston (because its easier), but my wife and I actually get on the train at Stockport. We actually travel Stockport - Euston return. I guess this is illegal.

No, he isn't because season tickets allow you to travel to/from any stations along the route. And most likely neither are you - as long as you aren't using Advance tickets - since the majority of standard tickets allow starting/ending short.

 

[455driver]

The offence was boarding the train without a valid ticket where suitable facilities were available, that is the problem and talk of 'its the same price from Stockport' does not change that!

You can focus on what you like but the offence has been committed!

 

[gray1404]

I am not a fan of the Northern £80 fines, however, to avoid any further action being taken against your daughter, when invited to do so send in an account of what happened, making it clear that it was her mistake and for that she is truly sorry. You can state how she got mixed up with the station due to the fact she uses both of them. You can even point out that the fares are the same and she didn't mean to deprive the railway of any money. I believe it would be helpful to state that in future she will certainly buy her ticket before boarding the train too.

Please do not be defensive in the letter and then, hopefully they will offer you the chance to chance to pay the £80. Pay it, let that be the end of it and learn a lesson about how to use the train correctly and make sure it doesn't happen again.

I would recommend the letter is actually written in first person narrative by your daughter and she signs it. She is after all an adult (I assume) and it was her mistake that has caused this.