Failure of TVM payments

[saismee]

There appears to be a problem affecting TVMs across the network. People have been unable to purchase tickets by card, with the transaction reaching the payment screen, taking a charge, then refunding it and throwing an error up.

This is affecting all S&B TVMs on the Greater Anglia network, as far as I can tell. Ticket offices and conductor machines are working fine.

Is this happening anywhere else?

 

[MikeWM]

There appears to be a problem affecting TVMs across the network. People have been unable to purchase tickets by card, with the transaction reaching the payment screen, taking a charge, then refunding it and throwing an error up.

This is affecting all S&B TVMs on the Greater Anglia network, as far as I can tell. Ticket offices and conductor machines are working fine.

Is this happening anywhere else?

Certainly there were signs on all the TVMs at Ely this morning that said you couldn't buy tickets from them, only collect pre-bought. (No distinction specified between paying with cash or card, so I didn't try). Fortunately the ticket office was open.

 

[saismee]

Certainly there were signs on all the TVMs at Ely this morning that said you couldn't buy tickets from them, only collect pre-bought. (No distinction specified between paying with cash or card, so I didn't try). Fortunately the ticket office was open.

Shocking that it isn't fixed yet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jan 2026 ==

This has been very elegantly resolved by... disabling PRT entirely. E-tickets are still working fine, but none of the GA S&B machines are printing PRT anymore, only CCST.

 

[MrJeeves]

Sounds like someone didn't test their E-Ticket UTN rollover handling.

1 Jan 2026 is when all E-Ticket UTNs rolled back to the start again, as they do every 5 years.

 

[saismee]

Sounds like someone didn't test their E-Ticket UTN rollover handling.

1 Jan 2026 is when all E-Ticket UTNs rolled back to the start again, as they do every 5 years.

Curious that it affects all TVMs including the ones that aren't able to print PRT, though.

 

[Wallsendmag]

All GA TVMs are updated to issue PRT as far as I know

 

[plugwash]

Sounds like someone didn't test their E-Ticket UTN rollover handling.

1 Jan 2026 is when all E-Ticket UTNs rolled back to the start again, as they do every 5 years.

Does PRT also use UTNs?

 

[Haywain]

Does PRT also use UTNs?

Yes.

 

[saismee]

All GA TVMs are updated to issue PRT as far as I know

The card-only ones only issue CCST in my experience.

 

[johntea]

I had an interesting TVM failure at King’s Cross this morning where I purchased a £3.60 ticket with a £10 note

Ticket printed, £5 note spat out…then it decided it couldn’t pay out the coins so displayed an error on screen for about 30 seconds advising to speak to someone then just went back to the main menu as if nothing had happened!

Didn’t have time in that moment to chase that £1.40 any further (maybe it’s LNER stealth fare rises for cash payments ), I might send them a message as presumably they can remotely see the logs or something and the accounting will have a £1.40 discrepancy

I’m even more curious and annoyed I didn’t check now when the machine went back to the main screen if it switched to card only or would still accept cash from the next poor customer(s) and keep pocketing the change!

 

[Haywain]

I’m even more curious and annoyed I didn’t check now when the machine went back to the main screen if it switched to card only or would still accept cash from the next poor customer(s) and keep pocketing the change!

Difficult to know as what happened to you sounds like a fault (mechanical or change loaded incorrectly) rather than lack of change. If they don't hold enough change they should go to exact payment only for cash transactions.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Difficult to know as what happened to you sounds like a fault (mechanical or change loaded incorrectly) rather than lack of change. If they don't hold enough change they should go to exact payment only for cash transactions.

What he said , by far the most labour intensive part of a TVM is the coin mechanism.

 

[saismee]

Ticket printed, £5 note spat out…then it decided it couldn’t pay out the coins so displayed an error on screen for about 30 seconds advising to speak to someone then just went back to the main menu as if nothing had happened!

I've seen someone pay with a 20 pound note for a 12 pound ticket, where the machine was unable to give  any change, so it just printed the PRT and spat the 20 back out! It did go offline immediately though.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I've seen someone pay with a 20 pound note for a 12 pound ticket, where the machine was unable to give  any change, so it just printed the PRT and spat the 20 back out! It did go offline immediately though.

In this case the TVM is supposed to cancel the ticket , something that's possible with PRT but not with CCST

 

[fandroid]

In this case the TVM is supposed to cancel the ticket , something that's possible with PRT but not with CCST

Would the passenger know that the ticket had been cancelled? Imagine them walking through an open ticket gate and then being checked by an RPI on the train!

 

[Wallsendmag]

Would the passenger know that the ticket had been cancelled? Imagine them walking through an open ticket gate and then being checked by an RPI on the train!

There should have been a message on the TVM

 

[saismee]

In this case the TVM is supposed to cancel the ticket , something that's possible with PRT but not with CCST

There should have been a message on the TVM

There was a message on the TVM but it wasn't clear. It said something like "We were not able to print all of your tickets! Please contact the ticket office." The ticket wasn't destroyed (sometimes a checkerboard is printed over the whole ticket, but not in this case) and it operated the barriers fine a good 10 minutes later. I did ensure the customer went to the ticket office to pay for a new one, though.

 

[blimmo]

Would you have a defence to a strict liability bylaw offence here?

 

[Watershed]

Would you have a defence to a strict liability bylaw offence here?

Which Byelaw offence do you have in mind?

 

[saismee]

Would you have a defence to a strict liability bylaw offence here?

Well if you were entirely unable to buy a ticket before boarding due to the TVM being unusable and there being no open ticket office, yes. If you were referring to travelling on a cancelled ticket because it wasn't clear that it was cancelled, then I have no clue.

 

[blimmo]

I was referring to bylaw 18

In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall
enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless that
person is carrying a valid ticket entitling them to travel

In the situation where a TVM has printed a ticket that looks exactly the same as a correct ticket but due to an error has actually been cancelled in eTVD.

@saismee suggests that in at least one case it even operated the barriers which I think most people would take as positive confirmation of a valid ticket.

 

[Watershed]

There is nothing in the NRCoT which makes the validity of tickets conditional on what a particular industry-internal database does, or doesn't, say. Clearly if you've refunded your ticket then it is no longer valid. But if there's a problem in the issuing process then that doesn't magically render a paid-for ticket invalid.

Of course that would probably be something you might have to argue in Court because an RPI etc. is likely going to treat what their eTVD app says as 'gospel' even though it's more nuanced than that.

 

[blimmo]

Does the NRCoT not define etickets in relation to a database? Maybe that is only for contactless cards actually.

Is there a way for me to see what my eticket would look like to an RPI if scanned? I suppose it's always possible for an eticket's validity to change mid journey even if you checked before boarding. Although since bylaw 18 is checked when boarding if the eticket was valid then then I guess you haven't commited that offence.

 

[Watershed]

It's only for contactless cards and it's a very contrived definition there.

As you say, Byelaw 18(1) only applies to boarding. Byelaw 18(2), which is about presenting your ticket for inspection, does not state that this must be a valid ticket. I imagine this is to allow for things like overdistance excesses.

 

[MikeWM]

The card-only ones only issue CCST in my experience.

The two card-only ones at Ely issue PRT, or at least are fitted to do so, for the last couple of years or so. (Eg. my post here from December 2023). Can't say if they usually issue CCST or PRT as I'm almost always paying in cash, but I suspect PRT.

The Ely machines are still popping up a modal message box when trying to buy a ticket that informs you that there will be no trains on Christmas Day or Boxing Day, which seems a tad unnecessary now (!). I wonder if that not having been removed is related to the other issues.

 

[saismee]

The Ely machines are still popping up a modal message box when trying to buy a ticket that informs you that there will be no trains on Christmas Day or Boxing Day, which seems a tad unnecessary now (!). I wonder if that not having been removed is related to the other issues.

Someone mentioned this to me and I joked about it being ready for next year

The two card-only ones at Ely issue PRT, or at least are fitted to do so,

Sorry, I mean the slim machines. I know at a lot of stations they only have the large ones without the cash-accepting components.

 

[MikeWM]

Sorry, I mean the slim machines. I know at a lot of stations they only have the large ones without the cash-accepting components.

Ah yes, I don't encounter these terribly often, but I have seen them on occasion.