Failed train during SLW question

[Dano28]

Hello All,

I have a question I wonder if anybody could help me with please, which is:

"Your train has failed during SLW whilst you were traveling through in the wrong direction. You are unable to make contact with the signaller. Identify what direction you will proceed in and what protection you will lay".

There is a diagram which shows a train stopped (having failed) in rear of a signal 1/4 miles away (back of the signal is facing train as it is for movements in the right direction)

Am I right in thinking you would only lay assistance protection in front of the train, not emergency as not in TBW, and proceed towards the signal as this provides the quickest means of contacting the signaller ie SPT?

Obviously other alternative is assistance protection at the rear of the train and contine in the direction which you have come from..

Any help greatly appreciated.

Thanks Dan

 

[O L Leigh]

Your first course of action seems most logical. Once you have spoken to the signaller and agreed from which direction assistance will come you can move your protection to the relevant position.

I'm sure there used to be a need for emergency protection under SLW in the wrong direction if the pilotman wasn't with you and you couldn't immediately contact the signaller. Thinking about it, this situation isn't so different from failing within a TBW section where you can't contact the signaller. It shouldn't ever happen, but it's just about feasible that the signaller or pilotman might make a right old Horlicks of it and send another train into the section before they've confirmed that the section is clear. After all, the pilotman doesn't have to travel with you if there is another train to come through the section in the wrong direction.

O L Leigh

 

[Dano28]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

I totally agree, if CSR, GSM-R (where fitted) have failed, you have no mobile phone or reception and no Pilotman then fail then you are having a very bad day!

You are correct, I think there did used to be a requirement for emergency protection in SLW and no immediate contact but only applies to TBW now.

Having read module P1 and M2 there still appears no diffinitive answer, to the absolute worst case scenario.

Another point which you raised, once SLW has been imposed would it work as such you have a train travel through say in the wrong direction first followed by a train then in the right direction and so on? Or could it be you have several in the wrong direction followed by trains in the right direction and so on? Or neither of the above and another method used

Thanks

 

[O L Leigh]

It depends.

If you're working to and from a point of obstruction it would be one train at a time, but it could be that you get several going in one direction before you get one going the other way. There is no fixed pattern, which is why the rules give the pilotman flexibility about whether he rides with the train or not.

I've only done SLW once, and it was just towards a station being used as a temporary terminus to allow engineering work. In that situation it was definitely one train at a time, so the pilotman rode with every train.

O L Leigh

 

[Dano28]

Ok great thanks, I understand it can be a rarity, but that's cleared up that point so thank you.

 

[sarahj]

Yup, when ever we have had SLW on the Brighton main line, its been with a pilotman, so you should have no worry about another train coming into the section.

 

[Dano28]

Ok just to clarify, we agree that assistance protection in front of the train and using the SPT is the most logical, when failed on SLW in wrong direction and no immediate contact with signaller.. But is there a diffinitive answer?

I checked up and the need for emergency protection was withdrawn on SLW in the wrong direction in M2 iss 3 when it went live in June 2012, so I'm happy that it would only need assistance.

Thanks again

 

[BravoGolfMike]

That is correct, emergency protection "SPIT" is now just "T"

 

[O L Leigh]

But is there a diffinitive answer?

No there isn't.

O L Leigh

 

[TDK]

If there is no hand signaller or a signal box using fixed signals to authorise movement back to the running line the pilotman HAS to travel with the train (there are also other occasions) so therefore no other train can enter section, maybe this is the reason why emergency protection was dropped from the rules.

 

[O L Leigh]

Perhaps, but there would be a handsignaller at the exit to a TBW section and yet there is still a need for emergency protection should you fail inside the section and be unable to contact the signaller.

Yes there is no need under SLW if you have the pilotman with you because there is nobody who can authorise another train to enter the section. But if the pilotman stays behind then you have a very similar situation to the one you would have under TBW. I'm just not sure why there is a difference.

Oh well.

O L Leigh

 

[Tomnick]

One difference between TBW and SLW is that the signalling system is still used, albeit to varying degrees, with the latter to afford some sort of protection to movements through the affected section - on TCB lines the track circuits or axle counters will continue to operate normally, and on AB lines trains are signalled in the wrong direction using the normal bell signals and the block indicator for the line being used by SLW, allowing block working to continue in a reasonably normal manner for trains in the wrong direction, albeit outside the protection of some elements of the interlocking; in both cases, trains are usually signalled normally in the right direction. The pilotman serves to prevent two trains meeting head-on, not to keep following trains apart - presumably the risk of a train failing and being forgotten about in the 'worst case' (in the wrong direction and not accompanied by the pilotman) has been deemed sufficiently low to not worry about. On TBW, of course, it's a rather different kettle of fish - the safety of the whole operation relies on passing numbered bits of paper about, and verbal communication between the signalmen and handsignalmen involved to keep track of trains.

I can't add much to the original question, as my driving colleagues are in a much better position to answer, other than to suggest that it doesn't really matter when assistance protection is placed, as long as it's done before the assisting train is allowed to arrive at the scene. Logically, it's sensible to place it as you go, if you need to go further than that distance to contact the signalman (and I think the Rule Book in years gone by - thinking more 1972 than anything more recent - specified that as an action?), but I'd imagine that's why there's no definitive answer.

 

[BravoGolfMike]

Yes there is no need under SLW if you have the pilotman with you because there is nobody who can authorise another train to enter the section. But if the pilotman stays behind then you have a very similar situation to the one you would have under TBW. I'm just not sure why there is a difference.

Oh well.

O L Leigh

Perhaps a little thread drift here, but a train is allowed to proceed without a ticket (ie seeing the Pilotman,) if the train carrying the Pilotman, and thus the ticket, fails and needs assistance.