Failed penalty notice appeal

[jimbohorlicks]

My grandson was travelling between marple and Rose Hill, in Cheshire a 4 min journey, the fare was around £4.16 .
He had paid for an online ticket before he boarded the train. He was asked for his ticket on the train but could not show it to the inspector as there was no Internet signal. The inspector did not believe he had a valid ticket and He was issued with payment notice ,the inspector was not prepared to wait untill my grandson could find a phone signal. As the ticket had been paid for, the payment notice was forgotten about. He later received a penalty notice with an add on Admin fee of £35. Total now to pay £55.
He appealed the notice but it was declined due to not responding to the original promise to pay notice. In order to prevent this escalating the penalty ,£55,was paid under duress.
I would like to dispute that this should never have been paid . The train should have had the necessary means to have Internet coverage signals to show a purchased on line ticket or the inspector should have waited until the next station to recheck the ticket..
How can we obtain a refund in retrospect.

 

[superkopite]

Does your grandson have a receipt for the ticket purchase timestamped before his journey started?

 

[spotify95]

My grandson was travelling between marple and Rose Hill, in Cheshire a 4 min journey, the fare was around £4.16 .
He had paid for an online ticket before he boarded the train. He was asked for his ticket on the train but could not show it to the inspector as there was no Internet signal. The inspector did not believe he had a valid ticket and He was issued with payment notice ,the inspector was not prepared to wait untill my grandson could find a phone signal. As the ticket had been paid for, the payment notice was forgotten about. He later received a penalty notice with an add on Admin fee of £35. Total now to pay £55.
He appealed the notice but it was declined due to not responding to the original promise to pay notice. In order to prevent this escalating the penalty ,£55,was paid under duress.
I would like to dispute that this should never have been paid . The train should have had the necessary means to have Internet coverage signals to show a purchased on line ticket or the inspector should have waited until the next station to recheck the ticket..
How can we obtain a refund in retrospect.

Probably not the best action, but if it was me then this is where bank disputes would come in nice and handily. If you've got evidence that you were in the right, then I'd be filing a dispute and hoping for a reversal of that payment, since the inspector (or TOC) would have to prove the customer didn't have a ticket, which they did in this case.

I would personally NEVER go to paperless ticketing for this reason - phone signal will always be patchy on railway routes and will depend on many factors, including the type of rolling stock you're on. Some trains don't have Wi-Fi fitted and those that do are often so slow that you can't do anything with it anyway.

Though before escalating, I would go to the TOC and request a refund of the payment within 48 hours, with failure to refund resulting in the aforementioned payment dispute being opened.

 

[Dai Corner]

Does your grandson have a receipt for the ticket purchase timestamped before his journey started?

And if it was a mobile ticket which required activation was that done before boarding the train?

 

[jfollows]

I would personally NEVER go to paperless ticketing for this reason - phone signal will always be patchy on railway routes and will depend on many factors, including the type of rolling stock you're on. Some trains don't have Wi-Fi fitted and those that do are often so slow that you can't do anything with it anyway.

e-tickets, which are the vast majority of the type sold these days, don't need wi-fi or Internet access to use them, they are simply downloaded to the phone and can be shown directly. The only issue is if your battery runs out, and this has been discussed to death on this forum already.

However it's not yet clear what type of ticket was purchased here, so that's just a vaguely unhelpful if true comment from me, I admit!

 

[Haywain]

would personally NEVER go to paperless ticketing for this reason - phone signal will always be patchy on railway routes and will depend on many factors, including the type of rolling stock you're on. Some trains don't have Wi-Fi fitted and those that do are often so slow that you can't do anything with it anyway.

Although apparently this wasn't a problem when it came to buying the ticket.

 

[jimbohorlicks]

Does your grandson have a receipt for the ticket purchase timestamped before his journey started?

Yes he does ,it actually timed at 1 min prior to the inspector requesting proof. He had travelled late night and no ticket office so paid on line as the train was coming into the station. As he sat down and the train departed the ticket inspector was in his face. He is 19 years old.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2022 ==

Although apparently this wasn't a problem when it came to buying the ticket.

Ticket was purchased online on the platform, not on the train. Why so negative.?

 

[30907]

Yes he does ,it actually timed at 1 min prior to the inspector requesting proof. He had travelled late night and no ticket office so paid on line as the train was coming into the station. As he sat down and the train departed the ticket inspector was in his face. He is 19 years old.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2022 ==


Ticket was purchased online on the platform, not on the train. Why so negative.?

Because unfortunately the ticket has to be on the device, not merely paid for, before boarding the train.

Unfortunately, too, it is common for people to buy an e-ticket and apply for a refund if it escapes being scanned, and anecdotally this is not uncommon among young adult males, so unwittingly his behaviour matched that of a fare evader.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Yes he does ,it actually timed at 1 min prior to the inspector requesting proof. He had travelled late night and no ticket office so paid on line as the train was coming into the station. As he sat down and the train departed the ticket inspector was in his face. He is 19 years old.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2022 ==


Ticket was purchased online on the platform, not on the train. Why so negative.?

Many years of first hand experience.

 

[Watershed]

My grandson was travelling between marple and Rose Hill, in Cheshire a 4 min journey, the fare was around £4.16 .
He had paid for an online ticket before he boarded the train. He was asked for his ticket on the train but could not show it to the inspector as there was no Internet signal. The inspector did not believe he had a valid ticket and He was issued with payment notice ,the inspector was not prepared to wait untill my grandson could find a phone signal. As the ticket had been paid for, the payment notice was forgotten about. He later received a penalty notice with an add on Admin fee of £35. Total now to pay £55.
He appealed the notice but it was declined due to not responding to the original promise to pay notice. In order to prevent this escalating the penalty ,£55,was paid under duress.
I would like to dispute that this should never have been paid . The train should have had the necessary means to have Internet coverage signals to show a purchased on line ticket or the inspector should have waited until the next station to recheck the ticket..
How can we obtain a refund in retrospect.

Unfortunately you are very unlikely to have any recourse here.

The requirement under the Railway Byelaws (specifically, Byelaw 18) is to hand over your ticket for inspection when asked. That doesn't mean "when you can get round to downloading/activating it" - it means it must be produced at the time you are asked. There is also a requirement to hold a valid ticket at the point you board the train, and if your grandson was unable to produce his ticket upon inspection due to a lack of phone signal, this suggests to me that he didn't have a valid ticket when boarding.

This means that your grandson committed a criminal offence by failing to have his ticket available for inspection and/or boarding without a valid ticket. It would have been open to the train company to prosecute him for this offence. Instead, it appears that they chose to issue a Penalty Fare, under the Penalty Fares Regulations.

These Regulations do provide for an appeal to be made - and indeed give you a statute bar against being prosecuted, if you do appeal - but it must be done within 21 days after the date the Penalty Fare was issued. It sounds like your grandson failed to appeal in this period, and so the opportunity to gain statutory protection against prosecution (and the entitlement to raise an appeal in line with the procedures) has been lost.

Whilst there is no legal basis for the administration fee that was charged (train companies simply demand them anyway), having paid the Penalty Fare and admin fee, it will be difficult to obtain any recourse. You must also consider that if you pursue this (or indeed process a chargeback as one person suggested above), the train company could still cancel the Penalty Fare, refund it, and then prosecute your grandson. Clearly, this would be a very unfavourable outcome.

I agree that this is all extremely heavy handed and tilted in favour of the train company - but unfortunately this is the way the law stands. And your choice is effectively either to accept that the £55 outlay is likely to be the 'least worst' outcome in this situation, or process a chargeback/try and recover the £55 and risk being prosecuted.

 

[Darandio]

He appealed the notice but it was declined due to not responding to the original promise to pay notice. In order to prevent this escalating the penalty ,£55,was paid under duress.
I would like to dispute that this should never have been paid . The train should have had the necessary means to have Internet coverage signals to show a purchased on line ticket or the inspector should have waited until the next station to recheck the ticket..

Ultimately this boils to your grandson not having a valid ticket when requested, this in itself is an offence. There is no requirement for the train to provide sufficient coverage to his phone in order to use the internet, in this case that burden falls on him. There's also no requirement for anyone checking tickets to keep returning to your grandson.

I agree with what is stated above where this is a harsh situation and you feel wronged. By all means send a polite letter detailing everything stated in this thread and there's a small chance you could be refunded. Going on heavy handed and telling them how hard done by you feel would likely result in nothing.

He is 19 years old.

This also has no relevance.

 

[Haywain]

Ticket was purchased online on the platform, not on the train. Why so negative.?

It’s important to look at the holes in a story. The ticket was purchased while he was stood in the platform and had a good enough mobile signal. Yet a minute later you say that he boarded the train and the inspector was ‘in his face’ and he couldn’t show the ticket due to the lack of mobile signal.

 

[jimbohorlicks]

Unfortunately you are very unlikely to have any recourse here.

The requirement under the Railway Byelaws (specifically, Byelaw 18) is to hand over your ticket for inspection when asked. That doesn't mean "when you can get round to downloading/activating it" - it means it must be produced at the time you are asked. There is also a requirement to hold a valid ticket at the point you board the train, and if your grandson was unable to produce his ticket upon inspection due to a lack of phone signal, this suggests to me that he didn't have a valid ticket when boarding.

This means that your grandson committed a criminal offence by failing to have his ticket available for inspection and/or boarding without a valid ticket. It would have been open to the train company to prosecute him for this offence. Instead, it appears that they chose to issue a Penalty Fare, under the Penalty Fares Regulations.

These Regulations do provide for an appeal to be made - and indeed give you a statute bar against being prosecuted, if you do appeal - but it must be done within 21 days after the date the Penalty Fare was issued. It sounds like your grandson failed to appeal in this period, and so the opportunity to gain statutory protection against prosecution (and the entitlement to raise an appeal in line with the procedures) has been lost.

Whilst there is no legal basis for the administration fee that was charged (train companies simply demand them anyway), having paid the Penalty Fare and admin fee, it will be difficult to obtain any recourse. You must also consider that if you pursue this (or indeed process a chargeback as one person suggested above), the train company could still cancel the Penalty Fare, refund it, and then prosecute your grandson. Clearly, this would be a very unfavourable outcome.

I agree that this is all extremely heavy handed and tilted in favour of the train company - but unfortunately this is the way the law stands. And your choice is effectively either to accept that the £55 outlay is likely to be the 'least worst' outcome in this situation, or process a chargeback/try and recover the £55 and risk being prosecuted.

Thanks for your reply. Yes I believe the curtain co. Was a bit heavy handed and accept that my Gson did not respond quick enough to avoid escalation ,but like most youngsters thought thatcas he had paid it would not be followed through. He was annoyed that the inspector was in his face as soon as he sat down and wouldn't wait until my grandson had found a signal to show proof. His dad paid the penalty charge after trying to appeal the notice as he didn't want the house address to be on a low credit listing.
Personally I would have taken it further as he had a valid ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2022 ==

Yes his

Ultimately this boils to your grandson not having a valid ticket when requested, this in itself is an offence. There is no requirement for the train to provide sufficient coverage to his phone in order to use the internet, in this case that burden falls on him. There's also no requirement for anyone checking tickets to keep returning to your grandson.

I agree with what is stated above where this is a harsh situation and you feel wronged. By all means send a polite letter detailing everything stated in this thread and there's a small chance you could be refunded. Going on heavy handed and telling them how hard done by you feel would likely result in nothing.



This also has no relevance.

Age is relavent, if it had been me at 74 years I doubt the inspector would have even asked me to show my ticket.

 

[Darandio]

Yes he does ,it actually timed at 1 min prior to the inspector requesting proof.

This is where it gets tricky, especially for the cynic! And ultimately anyone considering action to take in this case is going to take a cynical view.

Assuming the train was staffed by a solitary guard it would be very unlikely for only 1 minute to pass during the whole chain of events especially as your grandson claims he bought it whilst the train was approaching. The train then has to stop and the doors are released, passengers board/alight and the doors are then closed and the guard would stay at the door whilst the train departs. Only then should they proceed with the ticket inspection.

This does unfortunately bear all the hallmarks of someone actually buying on board once they see a member of staff approaching to check tickets.

 

[LowLevel]

Thanks for your reply. Yes I believe the curtain co. Was a bit heavy handed and accept that my Gson did not respond quick enough to avoid escalation ,but like most youngsters thought thatcas he had paid it would not be followed through. He was annoyed that the inspector was in his face as soon as he sat down and wouldn't wait until my grandson had found a signal to show proof. His dad paid the penalty charge after trying to appeal the notice as he didn't want the house address to be on a low credit listing.
Personally I would have taken it further as he had a valid ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2022 ==

Yes his

Age is relavent, if it had been me at 74 years I doubt the inspector would have even asked me to show my ticket.

Inspectors ask people to show tickets. That's what they do, whether you're 74 or 19.

Your grandson can take the lesson learned by ensuring they download their ticket before boarding the train and making sure it is visible. An easy way to do this with the e-ticket format is to screenshot it and then you don't need data to show it.

The journey in particular is very short - out of interest if at no point the data signal on your grandson's phone improved during the journey so the inspector was unable to view the ticket, what action would you suggest they take? (Assuming that as someone paid to protect revenue "just let him walk off" isn't really an option - if I let everyone who had lost their wallet/dead phone/no data/lost their ticket off on the assumption they were honest I'd be a fool).

 

[swt_passenger]

Unfortunately you are very unlikely to have any recourse here.
[…]
This means that your grandson committed a criminal offence by failing to have his ticket available for inspection and/or boarding without a valid ticket. It would have been open to the train company to prosecute him for this offence. Instead, it appears that they chose to issue a Penalty Fare, under the Penalty Fares Regulations.
[…]

I don’t think this actually was a penalty fare under the regulations. It seems to have started out as an unpaid fare notice, and being Northern, they then issued one of their “Fixed Penalty” demands when the unpaid fare was “forgotten about”.

Is it not the case that normal penalty fares are not issued retrospectively?

 

[Watershed]

I don’t think this actually was a penalty fare under the regulations. It seems to have started out as an unpaid fare notice, and being Northern, they then issued one of their “Fixed Penalty” demands when the unpaid fare was “forgotten about”.

Is it not the case that normal penalty fares are not issued retrospectively?

This is true. We would need to see a copy of the relevant documentation to be certain. But either way - whether it is a Fixed Penalty or a Penalty Fare, trying to do a chargeback now will only end in tears (if it's even accepted by the bank).

His dad paid the penalty charge after trying to appeal the notice as he didn't want the house address to be on a low credit listing.

Credit reports aren't based on a whole address, they are specific to each person. So even if failing to pay would have an impact on a credit report (it wouldn't), it would only affect your grandson and not his dad (or any other people living at that address).

The risk with failing to pay the Penalty Fare/Fixed Penalty etc. is that the train company prosecute instead. That would likely lead to a conviction and fine.

Personally I would have taken it further as he had a valid ticket.

It's up to you - and there is unlikely to be anything lost by politely writing to the train company and asking them if they'd consider reimbursing e.g. the admin fee. But the likelihood of them choosing to do so is low.

Age is relavent, if it had been me at 74 years I doubt the inspector would have even asked me to show my ticket.

I'm afraid you are likely mistaken there. Inspectors don't ignore people because of their age.

Now, it may well be true that the inspector specifically chose to go straight to your grandson because he saw he was young. Equally, he may have already checked all the other passengers onboard. We don't know, and it doesn't really make any difference to your options either way.

 

[pelli]

I've just tried to buy a ticket in the Northern App from Marple to Rose Hill Marple (which by the way seems to require two trains with a change), and to simulate lack of signal I turned on Airplane mode as soon as the purchase had gone through. As a result, on the confirmation screen I can tap "View all tickets" to get to the ticket list, and tap the journey to open it up, but on the Ticket Details page the "View Tickets" button is greyed out and instead says "Creating your eTickets" (see attachment). I had to reconnect to the internet and wait a while for the ticket to become available. Certainly something to be aware of in the future when buying immediately before departure...

I assume that the "Ticket Details" page is available in the app as soon as the purchase has gone through, even if the E-ticket itself is not. Was this page shown to the inspector or not?

 

[Sultan]

This is the main reason why I don't purchase tickets online so close to a train's departure - even more so when there is a ticket machine at the station that will provide a physical ticket.

 

[jimbohorlicks]

Thanks for all the responses, the bottom line though is that there is a valid ticket, timed prior to the inspector issuing a pay later notice at£20 for the ticket
I accept the notice was ignored and that a penalty notice was issued subsequently with an admin fee on top ,total£55.
An appeal was launched but basically rejected as the original pay later notice was "ignored" .
The fact is, there is a valid ticket available timed prior to the pay later notice that was issued.

 

[Haywain]

Thanks for all the responses, the bottom line though is that there is a valid ticket, timed prior to the inspector issuing a pay later notice at£20 for the ticket
I accept the notice was ignored and that a penalty notice was issued subsequently with an admin fee on top ,total£55.
An appeal was launched but basically rejected as the original pay later notice was "ignored" .
The fact is, there is a valid ticket available timed prior to the pay later notice that was issued.

The fact is slow that the valid ticket needs to be shown on demand and not simply 'available' (which it wasn't really).

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for all the responses, the bottom line though is that there is a valid ticket, timed prior to the inspector issuing a pay later notice at£20 for the ticket
I accept the notice was ignored and that a penalty notice was issued subsequently with an admin fee on top ,total£55.
An appeal was launched but basically rejected as the original pay later notice was "ignored" .
The fact is, there is a valid ticket available timed prior to the pay later notice that was issued.

The issue is that it's not sufficient to buy a valid ticket. You need to show that ticket when asked.

In this instance I'd agree that the 'fair' thing would be for them to charge a minimal fee (say £10) if an unused ticket can later be shown. But it's down to their discretion how they handle these kinds of cases, and they have evidently chosen to be less generous on this occasion.

 

[12LDA28C]

Thanks for all the responses, the bottom line though is that there is a valid ticket, timed prior to the inspector issuing a pay later notice at£20 for the ticket
I accept the notice was ignored and that a penalty notice was issued subsequently with an admin fee on top ,total£55.
An appeal was launched but basically rejected as the original pay later notice was "ignored" .
The fact is, there is a valid ticket available timed prior to the pay later notice that was issued.

But it wasn't available for inspection, when requested.

Was there any particular reason why your grandson didn't buy a physical ticket from the machine - was it out of order? Or did he have no cash or card on him when he turned up at the station - which seems a risky approach, or a deliberate attempt to avoid paying a fare.

It seems a little strange that he could have just pressed a few buttons on the machine to obtain a ticket but instead chose to go online on his phone just as the train arrived at the station...

 

[Dai Corner]

Marple to Rose Hill Marple (which by the way seems to require two trains with a change),

Was the journey actually Romiley to Rose Hill (which is 5 mins)? The single fare for that is £2.80 though, not 'around £4.16' as the OP stated. There is a Duo ticket at £4.60.

 

[spag23]

The fact is, there is a valid ticket available timed prior to the pay later notice that was issued

But was the ticket timed prior to boarding the train? As other have pointed out, there is no obligation on a train operator to set up internet connectivity on all their trains (hugely expensive). Nor can inspectors be required to postpone their ticket inspections (waste of their time, and prone to passenger disappearing!)

 

[CharlieSpotted]

It seems a little strange that he could have just pressed a few buttons on the machine to obtain a ticket but instead chose to go online on his phone just as the train arrived at the station...

Not that strange, to be fair. It all depends on one's personal preferences and familiarity with the methods available.

Because I'm more familiar with my local train operator's app and it generally works well, if I'm in a rush I know I can buy a ticket on the app (with my regular journeys and payment details stored on it) much faster than standing at a ticket machine, which there might be a queue for, which seems to me to be slower, and which takes me longer to navigate.

 

[jimbohorlicks]

Was the journey actually Romiley to Rose Hill (which is 5 mins)? The single fare for that is £2.80 though, not 'around £4.16' as the OP stated. There is a Duo ticket at £4.60.

Yes your correct,the journey was Romiley to rose hill ,single fare was 2.80. Had my details wrong .

 

[reb0118]

Mobile tickets need to be downloaded & activated prior to boarding the train. Therefore no internet is required whilst on board to show a previously purchased, downloaded, & activated ticket.

E-tickets also require no internet to be shown.

Out of interest was the option given to purchase a new ticket on board?

 

[jimbohorlicks]

Thanks I didn't know that. I am not sure if the option to purchase was given but it's a good question to ask my Gson. Thanks.

 

[rs101]

But it wasn't available for inspection, when requested.

Was there any particular reason why your grandson didn't buy a physical ticket from the machine - was it out of order? Or did he have no cash or card on him when he turned up at the station - which seems a risky approach, or a deliberate attempt to avoid paying a fare.

It seems a little strange that he could have just pressed a few buttons on the machine to obtain a ticket but instead chose to go online on his phone just as the train arrived at the station...

I'll use the GA app rather than the machines to buy tickets at Manningtree station if I can - they moved the ticket machines outside and they're a pain to use. If it's sunny, you can't see the screens and if it's raining, you get wet. Can easily transfer tickets to the smartcard too, so no issues with the phone battery dying. They just need to find a way to allow me to buy two tickets together and put on different smartcards, so I can take advantage of the Network Railcard discounts - at the moment, have to use paper tickets to get that.