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facing court twice for the same journey

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stuartyoung

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Well, the OP seems to have been guilty of fare evasion, and breaching byelaw 10(5) for good measure.

Had the correct charges been put, he/she would, IMO, have no defence; however, the magistrates can only rule on the specific charge before them, and, for reasons already given, I believe that the decision of the magistrates to acquit on the actual charge brought was the correct one.

Although the six month time limit for pursuing a fare evasion charge has now passed, it is still possible that a summons issued in, or before, January (perhaps by VTEC) may yet find its way to the OP, so he/ she should not celebrate just yet.

If not, then there remains a civil debt in the amount of the unpaid UFNs, albeit that I personally consider it unlikely that VTEC, Thameslink, or any other TOC, would seek to pursue the debt in a county court. The validity of the PF is no longer relevant, since it was cancelled in order to pursue the failed prosecution.

Morally, the advice must be to pay the unpaid UFNs, albeit that I suspect that the practical advice would be to sit tight and hope that the matter is not pursued further.

Regardless of my personal opinion of whether the OP deserves the extreme good fortune that has come his/ her way, I do think that the acquittal shows that it is possible for a defendant wrongly charged, or, as in this case, charged with the wrong offences, to get a not guilty verdict without needing to hire an expensive solicitor. It follows logically that I believe that a passenger who is wrongly accused or wrongly charged should not simply plead guilty or pay a 'out-of-court settlement' for the sake of expediency.

I am in court in doncaster in a few weeks with vtec prosecuting under reg 18(2). Why should it not be the same as what happened at Cambridge magistrates court today? Maybe everything I offered as oral evidence was enough to have the case dismissed. Why would the prosecutor ask me to take an undertaking that I would not pursue a legal suit against Govia, in the high court, for the way I was treated?
 
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Clip

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I am in court in doncaster in a few weeks with vtec prosecuting under reg 18(2). Why should it not be the same as what happened at Cambridge magistrates court today? Maybe everything I offered as oral evidence was enough to have the case dismissed. Why would the prosecutor ask me to take an undertaking that I would not pursue a legal suit against Govia, in the high court, for the way I was treated?

Well given that you still haven't paid the VTEC ufn then I guess they also have a slam dunk case against you for not paying.
 

stuartyoung

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I am not guilty of fare evasion, as I had attempted to redeem a fare and also attempted to buy other tickets. An attempt was made to purchase a ticket on the first train.............
 

Clip

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I am not guilty of fare evasion, as I had attempted to redeem a fare and also attempted to buy other tickets. An attempt was made to purchase a ticket on the first train.............


Yes and you couldn't and as such you got the UFNs. You still need to pay these and as you haven't then they rightly have come after you for fare evasion.


What was the issue at Ed8ingburgh- why couldn't the booking office sell you a ticket?
 

Clip

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Was it because the OP wanted a free ticket for his eastcoast rewards?

Maybe but they still had the cash to pay for it and they still should've paid for their ticket. If something breaks you don't just get a free ride
 

jkdd77

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I am not guilty of fare evasion, as I had attempted to redeem a fare and also attempted to buy other tickets. An attempt was made to purchase a ticket on the first train.............

I respectfully suggest that you are guilty of fare evasion, with the principal evidence being your failure to pay the fare at the time, combined with your failure to pay the UFNs within the time specified. Nonetheless, the question is irrelevant, since you have not been charged with fare evasion, and it is now too late to prosecute for this offence, or for the other byelaw offences (such as 10(5)) which you appear to have committed, for which you should consider yourself extremely fortunate.

If it is really true that you are now facing prosecution by a different TOC for the exact same offence of which you have just been acquitted, you should write to the relevant court stating your intention to plead not guilty, enclosing details of your previous acquittal, and inviting them to dismiss the charge forthwith based on 'autrefois acquit'.

However, I urge you to be mindful both of your specific obligation to pay the outstanding fare due, and, in future, of your general obligation to purchase before boarding where facilities exist, and to have a proper means to pay at the time if not.

Notwithstanding that I think that you ought properly to be found not guilty of the specific charge brought against you, this might not be the end of the matter, since VTEC would be at liberty to pursue proceedings in the county court to recover the debt you owe them.

By the way, if you were indeed acquitted following a hearing into charges under byelaw 18 brought by Thameslink/ Great Northern, what precise reason did the magistrates give? Did they conclude that it was a Scottish matter over which they had no jurisdiction (which would not strictly be an acquittal such that autrefois acquit would not apply), that your journey indeed commenced at Ladybank at a time when no purchase facilities existed such that the statutory 18(3)(i) defence was made out, that the UFN was valid for the journey made, that the UFN, even if invalid, nonetheless constituted a "ticket" within the meaning of byelaw 18(2), or was there some other reason?
 
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DaleCooper

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Maybe but they still had the cash to pay for it and they still should've paid for their ticket. If something breaks you don't just get a free ride

I know that, does the OP? I have been trying to raise issues tactfully but personally I think the OP has been playing the system.
 

Clip

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I know that, does the OP? .

Im unsure as they seem adamant they shouldn't have to pay anything now they've had 1 day in court.

I have been trying to raise issues tactfully but personally I think the OP has been playing the system

I couldn't possibly say but with the emergence of the rude RPIs now being put into the story along with Police Im unsure
 

Llanigraham

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I am not guilty of fare evasion, as I had attempted to redeem a fare and also attempted to buy other tickets. An attempt was made to purchase a ticket on the first train.............

But it appears that you are:
You did not purchase a ticket at the first opportunity.
You were not able to provide a ticket when requested.
Your method of purchase on the train was not acceptable.
You were given an Unpaid Fares Notice.
You have not paid that Notice.
If it is now in Court you have presumably ignored other Notices from the train company.

How do you think that looks?
 

Clip

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Would it be an offence to offer in payment a card that you know will be declined?

No (we have had the card discussion many many times lol) as some people just do not have the cards that can be used offline however they should've paid at Edinburgh but didn't.
 

CheesyChips

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I know I'll get some stick for saying this but it is funny to hear that a TOC failed spectacularly to prosecute somebody who didn't have a ticket in a system with so many offences that are so easy to reach a conviction for.

I know we all lose out, yes it isn't fair etc etc but this has put a smile on my face
 

stuartyoung

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I have not tried to play the system! All i have endeavored to do was claim a free journey that I was entitled to under the rewards scheme. Also i attempted to pay for advance tickets. Being of limited funds, i always insure I get the best deal where I can. next week I am traveling to cambourne, the rail fares being extortinate! My son and I are going by national express rtn and a night in a premier inn for £65 total each (coach and premier inn).

When British rail was broken up, it was so competition could be made between rail companies. has this actually happened?
 

Clip

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I have not tried to play the system! All i have endeavored to do was claim a free journey that I was entitled to under the rewards scheme. ?

And you couldn't do that for one reason or another but you STILL had to pay for the journey you were undertaking.

Also i attempted to pay for advance tickets. Being of limited funds, i always insure I get the best deal where I can. next week I am traveling to cambourne, the rail fares being extortinate! My son and I are going by national express rtn and a night in a premier inn for £65 total each (coach and premier inn).

Trying to get the best deal is great and we all do it however it does not give you carte blanche to travel on the railways without being in possession of a valid tickegt which you could've bought at Edinburgh

When British rail was broken up, it was so competition could be made between rail companies. has this actually happened

Well the competition part happens at the franchise change over so yes it has happenned
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I know I'll get some stick for saying this but it is funny to hear that a TOC failed spectacularly to prosecute somebody who didn't have a ticket in a system with so many offences that are so easy to reach a conviction for.

I know we all lose out, yes it isn't fair etc etc but this has put a smile on my face

Im surprised TL were so badly prepared for it so I did chuckle. Isnt there a list of court appearance's somewhere?
 

DaleCooper

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I have not tried to play the system! All i have endeavored to do was claim a free journey that I was entitled to under the rewards scheme.

But that isn't all is it? You have also failed to buy tickets at Edinburgh (not strictly necessary apparently but it would have saved a lot of trouble) and failed to pay UFNs.
 
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CheesyChips

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Maybe you didn't try to play the system, but I think we can say with some degree of confidence you have committed at least one byelaw offence (perhaps unknowingly).

Then you didn't pay the UFNs...

I know you're going to say the rules are unfair and many people agree with you, but that isn't the debate. We have to work within the system that exists if you want meaningful advice.
 

furlong

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and inviting them to dismiss the charge forthwith based on 'autrefois acquit'.

While it might be the same byelaw, there could be a debate as to whether or not the facts are the same or substantially the same - a different request to hand over a ticket by a different person at a different time (presumably after you crossed the Scottish border). Such a request (or a subsequent 'abuse of process' argument) would not automatically succeed and these can be tricky arguments to handle without legal representation. (It's likely now to be out of time anyway, but what those legal principles would normally prevent would be a subsequent prosecution on a different, perhaps more serious charge such as RORA, based on substantially the same facts .)

Tweedbank

What has Tweedbank got to do with any of this?
 

CheesyChips

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If I board a train in Scotland without a ticket, I commit an offence in Scotland. if I remain on the same train and cross the border into England, do I commit an additional offence despite it being the same action?

Not sure if this is entirely relevant to the OP's situation but it's just popped into my head.
 

Clip

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If I board a train in Scotland without a ticket, I commit an offence in Scotland. if I remain on the same train and cross the border into England, do I commit an additional offence despite it being the same action?

Not sure if this is entirely relevant to the OP's situation but it's just popped into my head.

Id start a new thread for that as its going off topic a bit and some will be along to discuss just that for pages and demand compo or going to the press or something - doesn't help the OP
 

furlong

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I know I'll get some stick for saying this but it is funny to hear that a TOC failed spectacularly to prosecute somebody who didn't have a ticket in a system with so many offences that are so easy to reach a conviction for.

Well I think that is part of the problem, that there are now so many conflicting penalties and offences that even some prosecutors have lost sight of how to select the most appropriate for a given situation!
 

stuartyoung

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I'm now not completely certain whether:
1) the OP's case was adjourned rather than dismissed, or
2) a) the OP was found not guilty following a prosecution brought by Thameslink/ Great Northern, but;
b) VTEC have brought a separate prosecution under byelaw 18 in relation to exactly the same offence of which the OP has just been acquitted.

If (2), then the OP has a "double jeopardy" defence, in addition to the usual defence points.

If (1), then the OP still has a strong defence based on the points I previously raised, especially the defence under byelaw 18(3)(iii) in relation to the single journey from Ladybank to Stevenage at a time when it appears that no purchase facilities were available. The OP's journey plainly did not terminate at Edinburgh, even if he only asked for, and was only issued with, an UFN to cover part of his journey, and even if he committed other offences by continuing his journey from Edinburgh without previously purchasing a ticket to cover the remainder of his journey.

It is not the OP's problem that VTEC have ignored the possibility of bringing other charges which would be more likely to succeed, and which are now "time-barred".

the case today was dismissed as prosecution could offer no evidence.
 

Bletchleyite

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If I board a train in Scotland without a ticket, I commit an offence in Scotland. if I remain on the same train and cross the border into England, do I commit an additional offence despite it being the same action?

I'd have said not. I've similarly heard it argued that if someone was driving down a given road and at no point dropped below the speed limit, but was caught on multiple speed cameras while doing so, they could potentially argue successfully that only one offence of speeding occurred. Presumably this could succeed on a long, straight dual carriageway but would be unlikely to on a windy country road.
 

reb0118

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If I board a train in Scotland without a ticket, I commit an offence in Scotland. if I remain on the same train and cross the border into England, do I commit an additional offence despite it being the same action?

AFAIAA Scot's Law only applies to journeys completely in Scotland if you are making an Anglo-Scottish journey then English Law will apply. NB I am not 100% sure about that so will be willing to be corrected if required.
 

island

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Question for the OP.

Why did you not purchase a ticket for Edinburgh Waverley to Stevenage at Edinburgh Waverley, where there is a ticket office and vending machines?

Why did you not pay the VTEC UPFN?

Simple answer please, because I'm a simple person.
 
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