Facebook conspirator threw petrol bombs at freight train

[northwichcat]

http://www.northwichguardian.co.uk/...spirator_threw_petrol_bombs_at_freight_train/

He was just giving a warning for setting a moving freight train on fire when aged 17. So to me the story is a good example of why there should be tougher penalties for serious crimes on the railways

 

[Bittern]

The bstard should be locked up for life.

 

[Flamingo]

Possibly part of the reason he got four years (which various people were bleating on was too extreme). as his previous caution would have been taken into account when sentencing, I believe (am I right Dave?)

 

[paulb1973]

This was the chap who posted a message on Facebook, had a drink and fell asleep and awoke the next morning and deleted it. He has appealed the sentence (not the conviction as he pleaded guilty...so whatever happens it will still appear on a CRB check for life) which I suspect, not that I am a legal expert, will be reduced somewhat. Interesting story although don't know if this would have been taken into account at the Crown Court during sentencing?

Heading off-topic I'm surprised there hasn't been a greater fuss over the incredible 65-70% remand rate from magistrates court (6 or 7 times the normal rate) for what are individually and outside the context of a riot, relatively minor crimes. Perhaps this applies for this young gentleman - it comes across as if the Police, CPS and courts have colluded to 'punish' those involved by remanding them before they actually plead/are found guilty at a later stage [this has been denied]. Many, certainly those without previous convictions and of good character would have otherwise been bailed.

 

[jon0844]

I know the appeals process will stop this happening, but we've got powers that often aren't exercised fully (like maximum sentences for even relatively small crimes) to give people another chance - and yet that has been regularly abused.

I feel that unless we're extremely tough on what happened starting from August 8th, we'll always run the risk of it happening again. It's vital to sort this out immediately, so people won't feel they're above the law and can't be touched.

It's a tough one. I feel that under the circumstances, the punishments seem fair.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The man concerned apparently has learnt nothing about growing up and having an adult mentality. In 2007, it was firebombing trains when aged 17. In 2011, at the age of 21, he has progressed to the use of a social networking site to organise an event called "Smash down Northwich Town".

The custodial sentence should be more than the four years passed down. Individuals such as this should be subject to psychiatric evaluation and not placed in the normal prison system, but sent to somewhere which has facilities for dealing with such individuals, such as Broadmoor, with an indefinate sentence applied.

There is mention of an appeal in this thread, but the type of offences committed at the ages of both 17 and 21 would surely show the need for incarceration.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

You don't send people to Broadmoor because they haven't matured Paul!! Broadmoor is for people with very dangerous psychiatric conditions, not people who just haven't grown up.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You don't send people to Broadmoor because they haven't matured Paul!! Broadmoor is for people with very dangerous psychiatric conditions, not people who just haven't grown up.

Ralph, you need to re-read my entire posting. The matter of fire-bombing of trains at the age of 17 and the latest crime he is accused of, does not convey the mind-set of an unpsychotic mind. The man is clearly in need of the specialised medical facilities of establishments such as Broadmoor to treat his affliction, rather than the custodial use of prison, which admittedly remove him from society, would do nothing in regard to the treatment of his problem.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

There are 3 secure mental hospitals in England. They can hold about 300 people each, which makes the total capacity 900 patients. They hold people like Ian Ball, Peter Sutcliffe, Ian Brady and Ian Huntley. These hospitals treat people with the most dangerous psychiatric illnesses - personality disorders, psychosis and schizophrenia.

Whilst a "normal" person does not firebomb trains, and incite violence, being put in the same place as some very very dangerous people will not help either. Since this is his first custodial sentence, I see no reason why he cannot be placed in prison.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whilst a "normal" person does not firebomb trains, and incite violence, being put in the same place as some very very dangerous people will not help either. Since this is his first custodial sentence, I see no reason why he cannot be placed in prison.

If you feel that the facilties exist in the normal prison system to treat such psychotic individuals, then I accept your reasoning. I must confess that I was unaware of these specialised facilities being available in standard prisons, but I will take your reply as reassurance that such facilities do exist for this type of treatment. However, your comment about very dangerous people also applies to the standard prison system.

I do not know if you ever saw the thread about the custodial sentence handed down to an infamous graffiti individual recently. Two replies came from people who had served custodial sentences and neither of these said that the specialised medical/psychiatric help that they so desperately needed was available within their particular prisons. One in particular, went on to say it was the St Vincent organisation he attended on his release who helped him back to his present good situation.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

If you feel that the facilties exist in the normal prison system to treat such psychotic individuals, then I accept your reasoning.

There are certainly medical facilities avaliable, and if a psychiatric illness is suspected then the FME would be called out to assess.

I must confess that I was unaware of these specialised facilities being available in standard prisons, but I will take your reply as reassurance that such facilities do exist for this type of treatment.

My point was that normal prisons can safely hold people with mild psychiatric illnesses. It's the most severe that get sent to Broadmoor/Rampton etc. If we sent everyone to those hospitals then we would run out of space, meaning that people who actually need those facilities cannot get them.

 

[bnm]

Ralph, you need to re-read my entire posting. The matter of fire-bombing of trains at the age of 17 and the latest crime he is accused of, does not convey the mind-set of an unpsychotic mind. The man is clearly in need of the specialised medical facilities of establishments such as Broadmoor to treat his affliction, rather than the custodial use of prison, which admittedly remove him from society, would do nothing in regard to the treatment of his problem.

If you feel that the facilties exist in the normal prison system to treat such psychotic individuals, then I accept your reasoning. I must confess that I was unaware of these specialised facilities being available in standard prisons, but I will take your reply as reassurance that such facilities do exist for this type of treatment. However, your comment about very dangerous people also applies to the standard prison system.

You're qualifiied to pass judgement on this individual are you? You've met him and assessed his mental state have you?

If you've done all that then I'm happy to accept your belief that the man is psychotic. If not, then best leave the decisions to those best qualified eh? Rather than make silly judgements based on media reports.

 

[paulb1973]

This chap, the younger of the two jailed is probably being held in a Young Offenders Institute (a prison in all but name for the 15-21 age group, sixteen of these places exist). These establishments deliver fairly horrific re-conviction rates (as high as 75-80% of those released and who commit another offence within two years) against a 50% rate for 'adult' prisons - which is itself pretty-awful. So while many demand punishments now, which the good-old taxpayer pays for to the tune of £40,000+ per YOI inmate per annum, it is often counter productive. Even if they lead blameless lives after release, they are still going to find it very difficult to secure employment. They will be eligible for state benefits and that is again funded indirectly through peoples taxes.

We have almost 87,000 people in prison, that's 150 people per 100,000 population (high by European standards, Norway's figure is 66) a record high for England & Wales and some 10,000 of those are in the narrow 18-20 age band. That age group make up almost an eighth of the entire estate. In 1992 the total population was half that figure (and remember these numbers don't include Scotland or NI). There may be a call to be tough now, but these rates of imprisonment are unsustainable, unless you build lots of new prisons - and that's just not going to happen.

 

[jon0844]

I totally get the argument that people going to prison can pick up more contacts/knowledge and come out to re-offend. I also get that they may seriously mess up their future job prospects.

But what's the alternative? A slap on the wrist? In theory that might make people feel lucky to have been given another change and go straight, but they don't do they? They learn that they're above the law and get worse.

The softly softly approach has to be as bad, or worse, and we - the public - suffer from these people being out on the street as against locked up. What's the cost to the economy from their crimes (including the ones that never get solved, nor do the criminals ever have the money to pay back the damage done) when they're free, as against the cost of keeping them locked up?

Personally, I'd continue to lock people up (which might just stop everyone growing up to think it's okay to do what you want) but look at how people are treated inside a young offenders institute or prison. Why do they get access to drugs and even mobile phones? Why are they able to freely talk about how to commit more crimes - and so on.

While I am all for giving people another chance, you also need people to realise just how much prison might mess up their life - to serve as a deterrent in the first place.

For goodness knows how long, people of all backgrounds have got this message that you can break the law and be fine because most of the time you will.

Naturally, at the same time as doing all of this, you need to be making sure that you're creating a society that gives everyone a fair chance at getting a job, or furthering their education, getting on an apprentice scheme.

Finally, you make it socially unacceptable to be a layabout - and benefits will only cover those who really can't work or have a genuine disability. It's far too tempting (as I found when I left school) to just sit back and get your unemployment or income support. I was surrounded by friends who did just that, and I knew that I didn't want to do it - even though it was easy money. I had aspirations at bettering myself that some people didn't, and nobody was around to convince them otherwise (and this was 1990 so under the last Tory Government).

 

[paulb1973]

This article appears on the Independent website - the president of the PGA isn't happy:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...y-will-fill-prisons-within-weeks-2345256.html

..."The leader of Britain's prison governors accused magistrates of indulging in a sentencing 'feeding frenzy' as prisons near capacity. Eoin McLennan-Murray, president of the Prison Governors Association (PGA), said courts had shown "naked popularism" in meting out tough justice after the riots" And...

..."Putting minor offenders behind bars was a risky strategy, said Mr McLennan-Murray..Once you've been in prison it increases the chance you're going in again. Prison isn't the sort of place where you learn the best way"

 

[jon0844]

We have to hope and pray that this send a message that will cut down on numbers in the future. It's a risky gamble, but - really - what was the alternative?

If we'd done nothing and been soft, I am sure there would be more riots having taken place already. The fact is, besides some petrol bombs thrown in Enfield a couple of days ago, there's been pretty much no trouble since.

Of course, now we have to look at the justice system again and consider the most appropriate punishments for dealing with the 40% of people who hadn't been done before - and pretty much prove the point that people did believe they were above the law. Now, hopefully anyone else that was considering joining in should something happen again won't.

Look at Facebook and many websites that have sprung up with idiots who call themselves political activists who now relish the next 'protest' to cause trouble. They've been doing this for some time and the police stood back. I hope next time, at the first sign of trouble they'll come down on them hard and convince them to go and find another 'hobby'. What's good is that we now now the silent majority actually do support the police.

 

[Bittern]

Get Gene Hunt to interrogate him. That'd send a message.

 

[sonorguy]

As a manager of a psych hospital dealing in secure care (ie we receive patients from prisons) there is nothing at all anywhere in any of the reporting that leads me to believe that this chap is psychotic, which describes a symptom set of delusional beliefs, not the urge to petrol bomb a train and he certainly doesn't need to be in the High Secure hospital estate.

There isn't any treatment called 'Psychiatric Behavioural Therapy'. It's possible you mean cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) or Dialectical Behaviouiral Therapy (DBT), but you can't be a consultant in either of these. You can be a psychiatric consultant or a consultant psychologist (not a doctor) with an interest in CBT though. Your friend may be a CBT practitioner, but that doesn't make him a consultant, or even a doctor necessarily, most CBT practitioners are either psychologists or nurses, who aren't able to diagnose. If he is a consultant psychiatrist then he should know better than to attempt to diagnose without assessment, even when in jest. The consultants I employ know better than that.

There's no evidence at all that he's psychotic and as he clearly doesn't need any treatment in Broadmoor, Rampton or Ashworth then a prison place will suit him just fine for the very short sentence that this will be reduced to on appeal.