F1 2012

[LE Greys]

Alonso is a good, talented driver but his fiery temper has seen him clash with a few drives on and off the track over the years.

All his experience driving got him into the lead at the moment with today's race.

The more I watch Alonso, the more I'm reminded of Nelson Piquet (Sr). No Salazar/Hockenheim incidents so far, but it's half-expected sometimes.

 

[Ivo]

The more I watch Alonso, the more I'm reminded of Nelson Piquet (Sr). No Salazar/Hockenheim incidents so far, but it's half-expected sometimes.

Care to explain?

 

[LE Greys]

Care to explain?

I don't know, it's just an impression. Piquet often came accross as an arrogant ass, but he was certainly quick, a three-times world champion. He also had quite a temper when he was younger, as Eliseo Salazar found out at Hockenheim in 1982. You couldn't get away with that these days, and I've certainly never seen Alonso getting that angry, but he can get a bit wound up sometimes.

 

[Darandio]

Piquet's logic was quite simple, do anything to win even if it included breaking rules to do so, things that wouldn't be tolerable today.

Just look at the feud with Mansell, where it is suggested that he bribed within the team to ensure he was given the better equipment. Mansell also claimed that Piquet paid a newspaper to report false information about Mansell, his family and personal life in an attempt to unsetlle his team mate.

 

[LE Greys]

Piquet's logic was quite simple, do anything to win even if it included breaking rules to do so, things that wouldn't be tolerable today.

Just look at the feud with Mansell, where it is suggested that he bribed within the team to ensure he was given the better equipment. Mansell also claimed that Piquet paid a newspaper to report false information about Mansell, his family and personal life in an attempt to unsetlle his team mate.

Mind you, Mansell also insisted on 'undisputed number 1 status' when he returned to Williams and announced his retirement several times. F1 politics back then were considerably bloodier then than they are now, and that's saying something.

 

[Zoe]

Mind you, Mansell also insisted on 'undisputed number 1 status' when he returned to Williams and announced his retirement several times. F1 politics back then were considerably bloodier then than they are now, and that's saying something.

Mansell then retired after Williams signed Prost for 1993. Prost refused to allow Williams to sign Senna for that season and then retired himself after 1993 before Senna joined the team in 1994.

 

[Failed Unit]

Mansell then retired after Williams signed Prost for 1993. Prost refused to allow Williams to sign Senna for that season and then retired himself after 1993 before Senna joined the team in 1994.

Back in the days that a monkey could win in a Williams, such was the dominance of the car. Nice to see the happy times return to the team.

 

[Zoe]

Back in the days that a monkey could win in a Williams, such was the dominance of the car. Nice to see the happy times return to the team.

Senna still won in the McLaren in 1991 and in 1994 Schumacher won despite getting disqualified from two races and suspended from another two.

 

[newbie babs]

I think saying a monkey could win in a Williams is wrong.

Cars were drove by drivers with not as much on board stuff as they have today. It was fast, dangerous and you needed to drive well, no safety features as we have today.
It was fantastic to watch with overtaking, stops and good strategy.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Senna still won in the McLaren in 1991 and in 1994 Schumacher won despite getting disqualified from two races and suspended from another two.

The latter because Damon Hill was in the Williams. Considering he was eventually champion (only when Schumacher joined a poor Ferrari team), he was a very limited driver, prone to cracking under pressure. The repeated spins and crashes with Schumacher in 1995 were embarrassing, and almost all his own fault.

Had Senna not been killed, he could have won any number of championships by the time he retired, in a Williams.

 

[Zoe]

The latter because Damon Hill was in the Williams. Considering he was eventually champion (only when Schumacher joined a poor Ferrari team), he was a very limited driver, prone to cracking under pressure. The repeated spins and crashes with Schumacher in 1995 were embarrassing, and almost all his own fault.

What about the 1997 Williams though? Schumacher ran Villeneuve very close that season.

 

[Bungle73]

I think saying a monkey could win in a Williams is wrong.

Cars were drove by drivers with not as much on board stuff as they have today. It was fast, dangerous and you needed to drive well, no safety features as we have today.
It was fantastic to watch with overtaking, stops and good strategy.

The cars weren't as unsafe as you make out. Don't forget there hadn't been any driver deaths since the early '80s. That made everyone a bit too complacent, which is why Imola 1994 was such a shock.

The latter because Damon Hill was in the Williams. Considering he was eventually champion (only when Schumacher joined a poor Ferrari team), he was a very limited driver, prone to cracking under pressure. The repeated spins and crashes with Schumacher in 1995 were embarrassing, and almost all his own fault.

Had Senna not been killed, he could have won any number of championships by the time he retired, in a Williams.

By rights Damon should have been World Champion in 1994. I'll never understand why Schumacher wasn't disqualified for Melbourne.

 

[newbie babs]

Has Senna not died, then Schumacher would not have had it all his own way.

Most of the drivers were affected by senna's untimely death and Schumacher was just starting his F1 career and had nothing to fear.

I did not say unsafe just racing was racing in a totally different style than it is today.

 

[Royston Vasey]

What about the 1997 Williams though? Schumacher ran Villeneuve very close that season.

The Ferrari improved rapidly, it was far from perfect in 97 but Williams had started to wane by then.

By this time privateers were slowly falling away unable to compete financially. Ferrari had comfortably a nine figure budget, and by that time Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne had produced a package (including Schumacher) which was showing the signs of real potential. McLaren of course replaced Williams at the top before Schumacher's dominance began. But by then Williams had dropped away unable to compete financially with the Ferrari and (de facto) Mercedes teams.

 

[Lampshade]

What about the 1997 Williams though? Schumacher ran Villeneuve very close that season.

I believe Adrian Newey had been placed on gardening leave by mid-season, so while Ferrari kept development up Williams had virtually the same car for many races.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I believe Adrian Newey had been placed on gardening leave by mid-season, so while Ferrari kept development up Williams had virtually the same car for many races.

How could I forget! Newey moved to McLaren and designed two invincible cars in 98 and 99.

 

[Zoe]

By rights Damon should have been World Champion in 1994. I'll never understand why Schumacher wasn't disqualified for Melbourne.

It was Adelaide back then, the race didn't move to Melbourne until 1996.

 

[Lampshade]

How could I forget! Newey moved to McLaren and designed two invincible cars in 98 and 99.

Yep, the MP4/13 was/is still the last McLaren to win the Constructor's Championship hock:

 

[Bungle73]

It was Adelaide back then, the race didn't move to Melbourne until 1996.

I remembered it was in Austraila somewhere, I just couldnt remember where. It was a long time ago.

 

[Ivo]

The latter because Damon Hill was in the Williams. Considering he was eventually champion (only when Schumacher joined a poor Ferrari team), he was a very limited driver, prone to cracking under pressure.

Most definitely true. After Williams, how many races did he win? One! And even it was due to a massive rainstorm that saw only eight cars finish, and Eddie Jordan deployed Team Orders to keep Ralf behind him. His only other performance of note was Hungary 1997 (which, to be fair to Damon, was very unfortunate).

What about the 1997 Williams though? Schumacher ran Villeneuve very close that season.

Until his little "misdemeanour" anyway :roll:

I believe Adrian Newey had been placed on gardening leave by mid-season, so while Ferrari kept development up Williams had virtually the same car for many races.

That would explain why Ferrari and especially McLaren were able to seemingly surpass Williams' capability by the end of the season (McLaren finished the season with a 1-2 at Jerez)...

Newey moved to McLaren and designed two invincible cars in 98 and 99.

I wouldn't say the 1999 car was invincible. Did Ferrari not win the Constructor's Championship (even with Mika Salo) that year?

Yep, the MP4/13 was/is still the last McLaren to win the Constructor's Championship hock:

Unless you count the 2007 model It easily won the most points, but didn't win either Championship!

 

[Zoe]

Until his little "misdemeanour" anyway

It wouldn't have made any difference if Villeneuve had just overtaken him as Schumacher would at best have finished second and lost the World Championship by 3 points.

 

[Lampshade]

That would explain why Ferrari and especially McLaren were able to seemingly surpass Williams' capability by the end of the season (McLaren finished the season with a 1-2 at Jerez)...

McLaren arguably had the best car, it just broke down all the time. They lost at least four races (including an almost certain 1-2) through unreliability.

I wouldn't say the 1999 car was invincible. Did Ferrari not win the Constructor's Championship (even with Mika Salo) that year?

They were too inconsistent; Hakkinen crashed out of the lead twice (at Imola and Monza). If he'd have won every race he qualified on pole for it'd have been a walkover for both championships.

 

[Bungle73]

Most definitely true. After Williams, how many races did he win? One! And even it was due to a massive rainstorm that saw only eight cars finish, and Eddie Jordan deployed Team Orders to keep Ralf behind him. His only other performance of note was Hungary 1997 (which, to be fair to Damon, was very unfortunate).

That's a bit unfair. He was driving for Arrows and Jordon. Even Schumacher would have trouble winning in those cars, unless something unexpected happened.

 

[Zoe]

That's a bit unfair. He was driving for Arrows and Jordon. Even Schumacher would have trouble winning in those cars, unless something unexpected happened.

Why was he unable to sign for a more competitive team though? I doubt Schumacher would have had any difficult finding another team if Ferrari hadn't wanted him.

 

[gswindale]

I think the problem for Hill was that the "big" teams had their drivers for 97 sorted quite far in advance, whilst Williams left it until quite late to decide they wouldn't retain him.

The Jordan was approaching the peak of its performance when Hill joined, as I seem to recall Frentzen finished 3rd in 99 and was a title challenger until quite late on (although Schumacher missed a fair bit of the season)

 

[LE Greys]

Has Senna not died, then Schumacher would not have had it all his own way.

Most of the drivers were affected by senna's untimely death and Schumacher was just starting his F1 career and had nothing to fear.

I did not say unsafe just racing was racing in a totally different style than it is today.

I always wonder what would have happened if

1. Senna had survived the accident (according to the film, he was virtually uninjured except for a blow to the head and might have walked away otherwise) and gone on to win at Monaco and a few more races
2. The accident had not happened, and he had won that race

Either one would have set up a championship clash between two greats, which could have gone anywhere. We never got the chance to see a real head-to-head between Senna and Schumacher, it would have been fascinating to see.

As for the pre-1994 cars, they were impressive technical beasts. Traction control, active suspension and ABS, plus on-board electronics that knew where it was on the circuit just from internal sensors was remarkable. The aerodynamics were a lot less sophisticated, but what was under the skin was remarkable. A lot of it is in family cars today, and wouldn't be but for F1 in the 80s and 90s.

 

[newbie babs]

Pre 1994 they were fantastic to watch and to hear.

1987 I went to Austria and watched Nigel win the race after quite a few re-starts, I think there was 3 and that meant it was already 2 hours old before we had got much racing done but plenty of action and plenty of drivers went out.

Of course we had Benetton and Thierry Boutsen. Senna, Prost and Johansson finished fifth, sixth and seventh. Nelson Piquet finished 2nd and all his fans were so angry they started to burn their flags along with Michele Alboreto fans (sadly he died too young).

Me, I was waving the English flag all the way to Germany (my home) and I got my life size cardboard cut-out of Nigel for my bedroom lol

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Bernie Eccleston has told the world that the UK doesn't need free-to-air TV coverage, using flawed logic to try to tell us Sky is the way forward.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jun/07/bernie-ecclestone-formula-one-free-bbc?newsfeed=true

He claims Sky reaches 10m of the 25m households in the UK, but the BBC viewing figures are "normally about 6m or 7m", so there is no need for free-to-air coverage in the UK. He also claims "People don't want to watch delayed stuff because nowadays it's hard not to know the result if you don't want to,". I find it quite easy to avoid the news of the result and would love the BBC to show a delayed transmission of the entire race (rather than what they consider to be the highlights).

According to the Guardian, the first four races on Sky have been getting average viewing figures of 1m viewers, with the Chinese GP getting just 887,000, whilst the BBC's coverage of the Chinese GP got 4.21m.

More bad news is that the BBC are only showing highlights of the Canadian GP (which has been by far the best grand prix in recent seasons) this weekend, because they wanted the rights to the Spanish (Barcelona), Monaco (Monte Carlo), European (Valencia) and British (Silverstone) Grand Prix.

As a result, the BBC highlights of the qualifying session in Montreal will be shown on Saturday between 1030pm and 1145pm, and the race will have BBC highlights on Sunday between 1030pm and 1230am. Additionally, the programmes will be presented by Lee McKenzie, as Jake Humphrey is in Warsaw for the European Championship (football).

 

[GB]

The man is a Pratt who is only bothered about the bottom line rather than offering a service for F1 fans.

I'd choose the bbc any day of the week for live races over sky that is for sure.

 

[Lampshade]

Time to break out the dish again then