F-35 Fighter Jet costs

[asylumxl]

Mod Note: Split from this thread.

Indeed, there are concerns that aircraft carriers are going the way of the battleship- obsolescence. However, the UK won't be canning its pair of brand new QE Class ships and F35B JSF aircraft.

I wish they would can the F35. Their development has become a money pit and they're not particular good at anything they do. Even prominent people in the American military have admitted it. There are far better options for current generation fighter jets.

 

[Phil.]

I wish they would can the F35. Their development has become a money pit and they're not particular good at anything they do. Even prominent people in the American military have admitted it. There are far better options for current generation fighter jets.

Saab Gripen. Just as capable, here now and cheaper.

 

[kegdr]

Gripen isn't stealthy, and most importantly of all cannot operate off any type of aircraft carrier.

The F-35 program, while it has faced delays, is progressing well and the aircraft has performed admirably in a number of exercises. The UK took delivery of (as I understand it) its sixth aircraft yesterday - and should now receive at least one every 8 weeks.

 

[asylumxl]

Gripen isn't stealthy, and most importantly of all cannot operate off any type of aircraft carrier.

The F-35 program, while it has faced delays, is progressing well and the aircraft has performed admirably in a number of exercises. The UK took delivery of (as I understand it) its sixth aircraft yesterday - and should now receive at least one every 8 weeks.

The real irony is that the F-35 was supposed to be cheaper than the F-22. While the bog standard version is still cheaper, both the F-35B and C have surpassed its cost considerably. They've tried to make it appear as though the project has achieved its goal by keeping the F35 below budget but considerably inflating the cost of the other variants to compensate[emoji16] .

 

[kegdr]

Flyaway unit cost for F-22 listed here as $150 million. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor

F-35 costs in current LRIP phase (meaning the cost when in full production will be less) - https://www.f35.com/about/fast-facts/cost

F-35A: $98 million
F-35B: $104 million
F-35C: $116 million

 

[asylumxl]

Flyaway unit cost for F-22 listed here as $150 million. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor

F-35 costs in current LRIP phase (meaning the cost when in full production will be less) - https://www.f35.com/about/fast-facts/cost

I would take the second figures with a pinch of salt. Here's a table of cost based on figures from the Congressional Defence Committee last year:

And here's a report from RAND on the cost effectiveness of joint fighter programmes:

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG1225.html

The cost of the project is ballooning with every passing year it drags on. I can guarantee you the F35 will be close to or more than the cost of the F22 programme.

 

[Phil.]

Gripen isn't stealthy, and most importantly of all cannot operate off any type of aircraft carrier.

In that case take the Rafaele. (Spelling?)

The F-35 program, while it has faced delays, is progressing well and the aircraft has performed admirably in a number of exercises. The UK took delivery of (as I understand it) its sixth aircraft yesterday - and should now receive at least one every 8 weeks.

.............

 

[kegdr]

I would take the second figures with a pinch of salt. Here's a table of cost based on figures from the Congressional Defence Committee last year:

And here's a report from RAND on the cost effectiveness of joint fighter programmes:

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG1225.html

The cost of the project is ballooning with every passing year it drags on. I can guarantee you the F35 will be close to or more than the cost of the F22 programme.

Those figures, as far as I'm aware, are from previous LRIPs. I don't doubt that the program itself could easily become more expensive than the F-22, but the unit cost won't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

.............

Rafale is not capable of operating off the QE carriers either.

 

[ainsworth74]

Those figures, as far as I'm aware, are from previous LRIPs. I don't doubt that the program itself could easily become more expensive than the F-22, but the unit cost won't.

It would be concerning if the program cost didn't exceed the F-22 cost as the production run for F-35s in the US Armed Forces alone should number in the thousands whilst the F-22 ended at 187 operational aircraft.

 

[kegdr]

Exactly, and of course the F-22 has only one variant. The F-35 has three very separate variants.

 

[asylumxl]

It would be concerning if the program cost didn't exceed the F-22 cost as the production run for F-35s in the US Armed Forces alone should number in the thousands whilst the F-22 ended at 187 operational aircraft.

The number of F-35 on order, at least for the American military has dropped while their cost has gone up, increasing the cost per aircraft considerably. I expect you'll find the end price per aircraft might not be that competitive.

It's also worth remembering the number of F-22s built was capped. With a larger number of aircraft built the cost could have been improved. The F-22 has far more air superiority than the F-35.

 

[AM9]

The number of F-35 on order, at least for the American military has dropped while their cost has gone up, increasing the cost per aircraft considerably. I expect you'll find the end price per aircraft might not be that competitive.

It's also worth remembering the number of F-22s built was capped. With a larger number of aircraft built the cost could have been improved. The F-22 has far more air superiority than the F-35.

Are we paying for the aircraft in USD? If so, the price has just gone up as for some reason, the UKP has dropped a lot recently.

 

[kegdr]

The F-22 has far more air superiority than the F-35.

I'd imagine it does - it's primarily an aerial superiority fighter. The F-35 is a multirole strike fighter.

 

[asylumxl]

I'd imagine it does - it's primarily an aerial superiority fighter. The F-35 is a multirole strike fighter.

But it's a jack of all trades and master of none.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are we paying for the aircraft in USD? If so, the price has just gone up as for some reason, the UKP has dropped a lot recently.

I'm primarily talking about the main bulk of the program for the American military, but yes I imagine they were purchased in USD.

 

[kegdr]

But it's a jack of all trades and master of none.

Bit like the F-16, F/A-18, Typhoon, Gripen, Rafale, Tornado, F-4 etc then? They all worked out well.

 

[Monty]

But it's a jack of all trades and master of none.

It's still the best long term option to replace the Tornado GR4 and reintroduce fixed wing naval aviation. Air superiority will exclusively handled by the Eurofighter.

 

[fowler9]

It is, most importantly, pig ugly.

 

[asylumxl]

It is, most importantly, pig ugly.

It's American. The same nation that gave us the Pontiac Aztek.

 

[Harbornite]

It's American. The same nation that gave us the Pontiac Aztek.

They gave us the Ford Mustang too. What an ugly car...

Don't tell the people behind the F35 that it's American. Admittedly it is a Lockheed Martin product but the lift gear is Rolls Royce's and BAE have had quite a bit of involvement too.

I know you are extracting the urine but I quite like the look of it. However, it doesn't beat this classic for looks...

A pity that such a beautiful vehicle is a killing tool.

 

[fowler9]

Ah, the F-16 is a thing of beauty. I also love the SU-27 and its derivatives.

Weird thing is the A-10 and AH-64 are undeniably ugly but I love them and always have. The F-35 is ugly and also doesn't have "Something about it" for want of a better phrase. Ha ha. No offence to anyone who likes it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's American. The same nation that gave us the Pontiac Aztek.

Blimey, I don't know if the people who designed it should be sacked or the people who bought it sectioned.

 

[ainsworth74]

Bit like the F-16, F/A-18, Typhoon, Gripen, Rafale, Tornado, F-4 etc then? They all worked out well.

For me the problem is the STOVL functionality of the B. I can see no reason why you can't make a multi-role fighter that can operate from conventional carriers (as you say F/A-18 and F-4 being sterling examples of this) as well as a conventional land based role but trying to shoehorn in the STOVL into the same air frame? That seems to have been a near disaster.

I do think the F-35 will be a capable and good aircraft (particularly for the Royal Navy where it blows the Harrier out of the water, or er, air I guess) but I think everyone would have been better served to separate out the requirements of the A and C from the B and run two procurement programs.

 

[asylumxl]

They gave us the Ford Mustang too. What an ugly car...

Ford have designed some attractive cars in their history

Oh no, wait, that was originality designed by Lola [emoji14]

 

[Harbornite]

Ford have designed some attractive cars in their history

Oh no, wait, that was originality designed by Lola [emoji14]

It always amazes me that the GT40 was around in 1966. So forward-looking.

Anyway this is a bit off topic. We should remember that the government had wanted the F35B, then changed their mind in favour of the F35 C carriver variant before doing a U- turn. IIRC, the US Navy will use the C to replace the FA/18, The USCMC will have the B to replavce the AV8B and the USAF will procure the A for replacing the F16(and F15E possibly?)

 

[ainsworth74]

The USCMC will have the B to replavce the AV8B

Actually the USMC will be getting a number of F-35Cs to replace some of their F/A-18s.

 

[Harbornite]

Actually the USMC will be getting a number of F-35Cs to replace some of their F/A-18s.

So they aren't getting B's then or are they getting both?

 

[JamesT]

So they aren't getting B's then or are they getting both?

Wikipedia claims the US Marines are getting 340 Bs and 80 Cs.
We are supposed to get 138 Bs, with an unspecified split between RAF and RN.

 

[Harbornite]

Wikipedia claims the US Marines are getting 340 Bs and 80 Cs.
We are supposed to get 138 Bs, with an unspecified split between RAF and RN.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I'm trying to remember how many countries have ordered F35s (of any variant), I've got Canada, Australia, UK USA. Are the first two correct?

Come to think of it, hasn't Canada cancelled its orders?

 

[chris89]

Most of the Current and Previous Gen jets have gone into mega over spending. Look at the F22, Eurofighter and so on.

For the F35, we have to wait and see how it performs, the actual aircraft is very interesting and time will tell how it will perform though. Ashame couldn't have kept the Harriers (As well as Nimrods by god at that)

For Naval aircraft, Ashame we couldn't have done something similar with the Eurofighter as the Russians have with the SU33/MIG 29ks.

Also to me the A10 Thunderbolt II is a gorgeous aircraft and believed live extended now as well. Love it in DCS World, Although Rather have the Original Thunderbolt the P47 Jug (Different Era, but to me better looking then the Mustang)

 

[Harbornite]

For Naval aircraft, Ashame we couldn't have done something similar with the Eurofighter as the Russians have with the SU33/MIG 29ks.

A few years ago, the Indian Navy showed interest in a Eurofighter carrier variant, but the project never went ahead and Rafale Ms were sourced instead. A pity, but colonial ties can't come before cost.

 

[ainsworth74]

So they aren't getting B's then or are they getting both?

Both. B's to fly from amphibious assault ships and C's to fly from carriers.

I'm trying to remember how many countries have ordered F35s (of any variant), I've got Canada, Australia, UK USA. Are the first two correct?

Come to think of it, hasn't Canada cancelled its orders?

Canada never firmly committed but was expected to procure F-35s and was a part of the programme but with the change in government over there last year the F-35 was deselected and a new competition is to be run to choose a replacement for their CF-18s.

Wikipedia has the breakdown on the current status of orders/planned acquisitions of F-35s.

A few years ago, the Indian Navy showed interest in a Eurofighter carrier variant, but the project never went ahead and Rafale Ms were sourced instead.

Actually the Indian Navy is procuring MiG-29Ks to operate from its current carriers the Rafale's (if that deal does actually go through as it depends on how desperate Dassault are as the terms seem to be onerous in the extreme) would be for the Indian Air Force.

For Naval aircraft, Ashame we couldn't have done something similar with the Eurofighter as the Russians have with the SU33/MIG 29ks.

We could have but it would have required the Government to get serious about conventional carrier operations (or at least STOBAR if nothing else) which neither colour of government have been since the Second World War.