Extremely anxious- court summons

[davke]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post and its one that is seeking help as I am being summoned to court by Northern Rail in a couple of weeks. Transport Focus have got in touch with Northern Rail on behalf of me but Northern Rail do not want to back down. Its very frustrating. I am sorry if I haven't been given much information but I am worried about saying too much on the forum before it goes to court. If anyone is willing to give any advice via PM then I will be extremely grateful. How Northern Rail and other companies can behave so irrational is beyond me.

 

[yorkie]

Other than saying to read other threads (there are many specifically relating to disputes with Northern Rail), and our Fares Guide, there is no really constructive advice we can give when the circumstances are completely unknown.

 

[455driver]

Its quite easy really, you buy a ticket <where facilities exist> before you get on the train, otherwise you either buy from the guard on the train or at your destination station, obviously remembering which station you started your journey at, that way you wont get in any trouble or end up in Court, shimples!

 

[Agent_c]

I find it odd that you have a summons, but haven't been provided with anything on what you are accused of at all...

 

[davke]

Other than saying to read other threads (there are many specifically relating to disputes with Northern Rail), and our Fares Guide, there is no really constructive advice we can give when the circumstances are completely unknown.

Many thanks for your reply Yorkie. Obviously each case is handled on its own basis. I have read some of the threads and I seem to be getting more anxious. They didnt offer me to pay a fine, instead I am being forced to go to court for the first time in my life! I recently left my job due to stress and I the potential of having a criminal record will further bring me down.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I find it odd that you have a summons, but haven't been provided with anything on what you are accused of at all...

Sorry Agent my first post is slightly confusing. Northern Rail have accused me of dodging a fare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Its quite easy really, you buy a ticket <where facilities exist> before you get on the train, otherwise you either buy from the guard on the train or at your destination station, obviously remembering which station you started your journey at, that way you wont get in any trouble or end up in Court, shimples!

Unfortunately I got stopped by a NR ticket inspector who was unreasonable and accused me of not paying the fare. I have countless tickets that I have purchased prior to this event. I have asked Northern Rail to look at the CCTV but I am still getting accused. His statement is completely different to mine so its his word against mine. Its just astonishing how NR can behave like this.

 

[furlong]

So if you want assistance here, you could start by saying what offences are listed on the summons. Miss out details that might identify you like the date or time.

 

[Starmill]

Trust me, if it's possible I'm probably more frustrated than you through dealing with so many people's cases while seeing this scheme in action every day. It's next to impossible that they're on comission though because they're employed at six pounds something an hour (judging by a job ad, we don't know for sure) by a firm called STM Security.

I'm aware this is not really on-topic with your case though. If you're unwilling to post future details than "I left my ticket on the train" I'm not sure we can say much else.

Were you offered something related to £80 or not? Did you purchase a replacement ticket?

When you say "not rational" - do you mean "insistent that your having accidentally lost your ticket was a good reason to suspect you of fare evasion and / or take your details"? Because I'm afraid they do see that as rational.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Any advice that can be offered will fall into these 3 categories:-

1. How to attempt a settlement before the matter goes in front of the Magistrates.

2. How to plea (Guilty or Not Guilty with evidence to challenge the charge or a cross-examination to undermine the evidence against you).

3. Mitigation (reasons to reduce the sentence handed down if Guilty).

1. Attempting a settlement.
You or a local solicitor specialising in Criminal Defence work will be able to attempt this by phone or even on the day of the hearing by speaking to the prosecutor 10 minutes before the first case of the day is called. To assist in negotiation, an estimate of the likely outcome without a settlement would be helpful, which only an experienced solicitor will be able to predict.

2. Plea.
We don't know the facts. But supposing you are Guilty of a Byelaw 18 offence of failing to produce a valid ticket on demand, then you are unlikely to have any evidence which challenges that claim, even if you later found a missing ticket, it does not entirely undermine the prosecution. If this is correct, then you would be advised to admit to the Guilt at the soonest opportunity.

3. Mitigation.
This is where evidence of low income, your previous lack of convictions, and your prompt admission of Guiltn all help to reduce the level of fine imposed.

For an early admission of Guilt, then you might expect a fine plus costs and Victim Surcharge with a total in the range £ 100 - 200.


If any of my assumptions are incorrect, then other advice would apply.

If you have no experience of the procedures and of speaking in Court, then you may want to ask that local Defence Solicitor to do it for you, if you don't want to incur that cost, then sit in as an observer for a few other cases, or read the booklet "On Your Feet" (Rossano Scamardella).

 

[Agent_c]

Looks like we're slowly teasing it out, from "I've been provided nothing" to the inspectors account being wrong.

Can your tell us in your own words exactly what happened on the day? You boarded where? You had what ticket? Etc.

 

[Starmill]

My advice to the OP is to try to stay calm and factual, doing what AgentC suggests when they return. Try to avoid getting het up in how unfair it may or may not be, this forum isn't the place for that and you won't like the result if you do.

 

[tony6499]

Unfortunately I got stopped by a NR ticket inspector who was unreasonable and accused me of not paying the fare. I have countless tickets that I have purchased prior to this event. I have asked Northern Rail to look at the CCTV but I am still getting accused. His statement is completely different to mine so its his word against mine. Its just astonishing how NR can behave like this.

It doesn't make sense, what does this mean in relation to the offence ? Did you by chance get caught not buying a ticket but think showing you bought tickets on previous days means anything ?

It's a bit like getting caught shoplifting and saying that you paid for your stuff yesterday though. It's not going to mean a thing to the case in question

 

[455driver]

One very important question to get us going-

Did you get on the train where there was an open ticket office and/or a working TVM?

 

[crehld]

Any advice that can be offered will fall into these 3 categories:-

1. How to attempt a settlement before the matter goes in front of the Magistrates.

2. How to plea (Guilty or Not Guilty with evidence to challenge the charge or a cross-examination to undermine the evidence against you).

3. Mitigation (reasons to reduce the sentence handed down if Guilty).

1. Attempting a settlement.
You or a local solicitor specialising in Criminal Defence work will be able to attempt this by phone or even on the day of the hearing by speaking to the prosecutor 10 minutes before the first case of the day is called. To assist in negotiation, an estimate of the likely outcome without a settlement would be helpful, which only an experienced solicitor will be able to predict.

2. Plea.
We don't know the facts. But supposing you are Guilty of a Byelaw 18 offence of failing to produce a valid ticket on demand, then you are unlikely to have any evidence which challenges that claim, even if you later found a missing ticket, it does not entirely undermine the prosecution. If this is correct, then you would be advised to admit to the Guilt at the soonest opportunity.

3. Mitigation.
This is where evidence of low income, your previous lack of convictions, and your prompt admission of Guiltn all help to reduce the level of fine imposed.

For an early admission of Guilt, then you might expect a fine plus costs and Victim Surcharge with a total in the range £ 100 - 200.


If any of my assumptions are incorrect, then other advice would apply.

If you have no experience of the procedures and of speaking in Court, then you may want to ask that local Defence Solicitor to do it for you, if you don't want to incur that cost, then sit in as an observer for a few other cases, or read the booklet "On Your Feet" (Rossano Scamardella).

This advice is premature (though not necessarily incorrect), especially until the following question has been answered:

One very important question to get us going-

Did you get on the train where there was an open ticket office and/or a working TVM?

Perhaps the OP could follow Agent_c's suggestion of providing us a more detailed picture to allow us to offer more informed advice which is tailored to their situation.

 

[cuccir]

I don't see how it's premature to answer a question when asked. If someone chooses to not share the information then the advice may not be helpful, but that has been made clear.

DaveNewcastle's advice is very good, presuming culpability. If the OP feels that they were not guilty and explains to us how and why, we could then advise on alternative ways of proceeding.

 

[Agent_c]

DaveNewcastle's advice is very good, presuming culpability. If the OP feels that they were not guilty and explains to us how and why, we could then advise on alternative ways of proceeding.

Before we can look and see if someone is guilty or not guilty, we need to know exactly what they are accused of...

 

[6Gman]

Unfortunately I got stopped by a NR ticket inspector who was unreasonable and accused me of not paying the fare. I have countless tickets that I have purchased prior to this event. I have asked Northern Rail to look at the CCTV but I am still getting accused. His statement is completely different to mine so its his word against mine. Its just astonishing how NR can behave like this.

You got stopped.
The Inspector was "unreasonable". In what way?
You were accused of not paying the fare. Had you paid the fare? If so, where was your ticket?
You have countless tickets. In what way is that relevant?
You want them to look at CCTV. Why?
His statement is completely different from yours. In what way?
His word against yours. Again, in what way? And how is this relevant to whether or not you had paid a fare and held a valid ticket?
It's astonishing. In what way?

Without answers to some at least of those questions it's impossible to offer advice.

 

[crehld]

I don't see how it's premature to answer a question when asked. If someone chooses to not share the information then the advice may not be helpful, but that has been made clear.

DaveNewcastle's advice is very good, presuming culpability. If the OP feels that they were not guilty and explains to us how and why, we could then advise on alternative ways of proceeding.

I am not doubting the soundness of DaveNewcastle's advice, rather its timing and its inherent presumption of culpability before the facts are known.

If the OP has committed an offence then I agree DaveNewcastle's advice is very good. However, if the OP is accused of a byelaw offence for not having a ticket, yet boarded at a station with no ticketing facilities, then DaveNewcastle's advice in these circumstances (settling out of court, pleading guilty and/or mitigating the impact of being found guilty) would not be good advice to offer someone who has not committed an offence.

This scenario is of course is speculation. As a number of posters have pointed out it is necessary that we first establish the facts before offering advice relevant to the situation.

 

[Greenback]

Until the Op decides that they are happy to provide more information than they have so far, I don't really think that there is much useful advice that can be given here. In fact, i think that speculation into what might have happened, or what the OP might be charged with, will only serve to cloud whatever issues might be involved here and cause davke even more anxiety.

I suggest that we wait until davke returns to the forum. They don't have to provide any information if they do not wish to, of course, but if they do not feel comfortable in doing so, I feel the thread should be closed.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I do think it is clear that DaveNewcastle qualified his comments very obviously here:

If any of my assumptions are incorrect, then other advice would apply.

Perhaps if davke can just answer these 4 questions we'll be well on the way towards helping a bit.

1. Did you have any ticket to cover your whole journey when you were spoken to by the inspector?
2. If not, was there a facility to buy a ticket before you got on the train?
3. If no ticket held, did you have the means to pay the single fare for your journey on the spot and were you asked to pay?
4. What did the inspector say or do that you believe was unreasonable?

 

[455driver]

Until the Op decides that they are happy to provide more information than they have so far, I don't really think that there is much useful advice that can be given here. In fact, i think that speculation into what might have happened, or what the OP might be charged with, will only serve to cloud whatever issues might be involved here and cause davke even more anxiety.

I suggest that we wait until davke returns to the forum. They don't have to provide any information if they do not wish to, of course, but if they do not feel comfortable in doing so, I feel the thread should be closed.

He has logged on here today at 17:12 but hasn't answered any of the questions so maybe the thread should be locked.

 

[Haywain]

DaveNewcastle's advice is very good, presuming culpability. If the OP feels that they were not guilty and explains to us how and why, we could then advise on alternative ways of proceeding.

DaveNewcastle's advice makes no such presumption, as made clear below.

2. How to plea (Guilty or Not Guilty with evidence to challenge the charge or a cross-examination to undermine the evidence against you).

...

2. Plea.
We don't know the facts. But supposing you are Guilty of a Byelaw 18 offence of failing to produce a valid ticket on demand, then you are unlikely to have any evidence which challenges that claim, even if you later found a missing ticket, it does not entirely undermine the prosecution. If this is correct, then you would be advised to admit to the Guilt at the soonest opportunity.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

One more word of advice, davke, which I should have mentioned in my earlier reply:
Now that a Summons to appear in Court has been issued, then you really must attend or otherwise reach an agreement beforehand. But you need to be aware that there are now three parties to this matter: you, the Rail Company and the Magistrates Court. All correspondence at this stage must be copied to all three parties, and any telephone 'agreements' between you and the Prosecutor must be communicated to the Court.

While my forum colleagues are, understandably, asking you to give them more information about the incident, I'm more concerned that you need to be 'brought up to speed' on the procedures and requirements of a hearing of a Criminal Prosecution in a Court in just a few days time. There are rules and timescales about disclosure of evidence and a raft of other hurdles any of which can trip you up. If you are going to plead Not Guilty, then another date will be set for the Hearing at which the Witnesses from both sides can be called to give their evidence and to be cross-examined; but while that buys you more time, it also raises the costs (and the statutory penalties), and so you would want to be confident of the odds of success before risking a few hundred pounds more in costs if you fail.

When you try to balance the odds of success or failure, you will be doing that objectively, on the basis of the Evidence provided and the strict wording of the Act (or Byelaw) as defined in case law (and defintely NOT on your own sense of what seems fair or reasonable).

If you are doing all this yourself, then you don't have time to debate the details of what happened, but you do have time to manage the hearing in Court to your best advantage. And if you are not doing this by yourself and have professional assistance, then you don't need any of us.

Good luck

 

[bb21]

Very wise words from DaveNewcastle which I hope the OP will benefit from, even if he chooses not to disclose any more information here. Good luck.

 

[gray1404]

I do hope everything works out ok for the OP! Good luck indeed!

 

[CheesyChips]

You got stopped.
The Inspector was "unreasonable". In what way?
You were accused of not paying the fare. Had you paid the fare? If so, where was your ticket?
You have countless tickets. In what way is that relevant?
You want them to look at CCTV. Why?
His statement is completely different from yours. In what way?
His word against yours. Again, in what way? And how is this relevant to whether or not you had paid a fare and held a valid ticket?
It's astonishing. In what way?

Without answers to some at least of those questions it's impossible to offer advice.

This should be the format every OP should submit their dispute info in it fits nicely

 

[Greenback]

As davke hasn't been back to give us any more information, which is fine, there is no point in keeping the thread open.

I agree with DaveNewcastle. There's no requirement at all to give us any more information, but the fact is that we can only offer the most general advice without it. If you do want to post anything more for any reason, and you can't ask the staff via Private Message (PM) to reopen this thread, please start a new thread and if necessary we can merge it with this one for you.