Extra Virgin West Coast services rejected by NR

[Proud Salopian]

Was Wem a calling point on Wales and West's legendary Manchester to London Waterloo service?

It probably was! But that service was really a series of local services tied together for some reason... you'd have to have been mad to use it for travelling long-distance!

Shrewsbury-Crewe-London would be a quick journey... but not if they call at every little town en route!

 

[Whistler40145]

I'm still unclear what the proposed route will be?

Does it mean its a Voyager, starting as an Oxley C.S. to Shrewsbury ECS?

 

[Darren R]

According to the article "more than 2,500 people have now signed a petition started by the Shropshire Star calling for the direct link to be reinstated." That is a pretty impressive level of support in the town: half of the entire population, in fact!

This isn't a serious proposal surely? No disrespect to the burghers of Wem, but what does Virgin expect to gain from such a stop? I can see what the residents gain, but I am a little suspicious of Virgin appearing to lend their support to the idea given the town is so small. Someone far more cynical than I might possibly think that it's just a ploy to garner publicity and support for their bid to run extra services.

 

[Eagle]

According to the article "more than 2,500 people have now signed a petition started by the Shropshire Star calling for the direct link to be reinstated." That is a pretty impressive level of support in the town: half of the entire population, in fact!

That petition is for a direct link to Shrewsbury (which has a population of a lot more than 5000).

 

[WatcherZero]

This isn't a serious proposal surely? No disrespect to the burghers of Wem, but what does Virgin expect to gain from such a stop? I can see what the residents gain, but I am a little suspicious of Virgin appearing to lend their support to the idea given the town is so small. Someone far more cynical than I might possibly think that it's just a ploy to garner publicity and support for their bid to run extra services.

Or you know local paper reading to much into a Virgin spokemen politely not dismissing an unlikely proposal out of hand.

 

[Darren R]

That petition is for a direct link to Shrewsbury (which has a population of a lot more than 5000).

Ah - well that explains it! Since the story was about Virgin calling at Wem I sort of assumed that was the subject of the petition! (Didn't bother following the link to the petition since I had no intentions of signing it!)

Since the subject of the petition is a direct link from Shropshire to London, 2500 signatures seems quite low. Is this indicative of the level of public support or interest in the area? Or is there wide support for the idea (but no-one's bothered to sign the local newspaper's petition.) I'm not from the area, so I just wondered.

 

[SprinterMan]

Ah - well that explains it! Since the story was about Virgin calling at Wem I sort of assumed that was the subject of the petition! (Didn't bother following the link to the petition since I had no intentions of signing it!)

Since the subject of the petition is a direct link from Shropshire to London, 2500 signatures seems quite low. Is this indicative of the level of public support or interest in the area? Or is there wide support for the idea (but no-one's bothered to sign the local newspaper's petition.) I'm not from the area, so I just wondered.

Shrewsbury has lost it's direct London service due to lack of usage 3 times now (IC, VWC, WSMR), so there is always the nagging question of "Will it be sufficiently used?" I am not convinced it will be, and this is further evidence of that. It is just quicker and easier for Shropshire residents to drive to Stafford and get a direct ex-Liverpool train.

Adam

 

[kieron]

Of those 3 stations, a 5-car 221 will only fit in the Down (northbound) platform at Whitchurch.

I suspect that's why Councillor Paul Johnson was talking about platform lengthening.

Looking at the timetable, it takes ATW 30 minutes from Shrewsbury to Crewe non-stop in a 175, 36 minutes stopping at Whitchurch and Nantwich and 38 also stopping at Wem. While I think Wem would be a more useful stop than Nantwich, I don't see any intermediate stops actually happening. Virgin know how useful public engagement is, though.

I'd imagine that a Shrewsbury train between 8:05 and 9:55 would make more difference to the residents of Wem than a London train would, anyway.

Shrewsbury has lost it's direct London service due to lack of usage 3 times now (IC, VWC, WSMR), so there is always the nagging question of "Will it be sufficiently used?"

If they wanted to raise that question, they'd have extended the Wrexham train back to Shrewsbury and counted the passengers. That train goes to Crewe sidings after Wrexham, and it wouldn't take much longer to go via Shrewsbury than it currently takes via Chester. It wouldn't be a fast way of getting between Shrewsbury and London, of course.

Virgin seem very keen on having extra paths for these trains, so I'm sure they'll be quite happy with the passenger numbers from Shrewsbury this time around, whatever they turn out to be.

By the way, do you know what happened with Virgin's earlier Shrewsbury service? Wikipedia claims it only lasted a year, which seems a bit short for a trial.

 

[merlodlliw]

If they wanted to raise that question, they'd have extended the Wrexham train back to Shrewsbury and counted the passengers. That train goes to Crewe sidings after Wrexham, and it wouldn't take much longer to go via Shrewsbury than it currently takes via Chester. It wouldn't be a fast way of getting between Shrewsbury and London, of course.

Virgin seem very keen on having extra paths for these trains, so I'm sure they'll be quite happy with the passenger numbers from Shrewsbury this time around, whatever they turn out to be.

Not that I am knocking the VT Wrexham to Euston in the morning it is just used as a local service to Chester from the ATW feeder starting at Shrewsbury plus the substantial amount from Wrexham town & surrounding area going North, about the same in the evening, however it must draw orcats revenue.
Clwyd County Council paid BR to extend a Shrewsbury/Euston to start at Chester,stopping all stations between Chester & Shrewsbury about 20 odd years ago,it took far to long on both Up & Down routes, I recall the signage at Euston advising pax for Chester to catch a much later Holyhead train & arrive an hour earlier.This service was just a sweetener when the line was singled by politicians and soon ended costing over £1M , the saving on the single track bridge at the time was £450K now we have WG Ministers interference yet again on the redouble.

However with fuel costs rising & extra pax perhaps now is the time for extra services, as for W/S its key populated town was Telford,but the service never experienced much traffic from there.

Just my opinion.

 

[Proud Salopian]

It is just quicker and easier for Shropshire residents to drive to Stafford and get a direct ex-Liverpool train.

I live near Ludlow and I've found the easiest and most cost-effective thing to do is to drive to Warwick Parkway and take a Chiltern to Marylebone.

 

[merlodlliw]

I live near Ludlow and I've found the easiest and most cost-effective thing to do is to drive to Warwick Parkway and take a Chiltern to Marylebone.

Thats about 125 miles or so round trip, too far for me to drive now , but a good option, a few years ago I drove from Wrexham to Sandbach to catch the £25 Euston day return on North Western trains, that was about 100 miles round trip but petrol was a lot cheaper then. VT then was about £80 on the day return.

 

[Unixman]

Shrewsbury has lost it's direct London service due to lack of usage 3 times now (IC, VWC, WSMR), so there is always the nagging question of "Will it be sufficiently used?" I am not convinced it will be, and this is further evidence of that. It is just quicker and easier for Shropshire residents to drive to Stafford and get a direct ex-Liverpool train.

Adam

You really don't know the size of Shropshire do you?

Oswestry to Stafford would be over a 100 mile round trip.

 

[Proud Salopian]

You really don't know the size of Shropshire do you?

Oswestry to Stafford would be over a 100 mile round trip.

It's really something people in the east of the county do (ie Telford) - a quick journey up the A518.

Saying that, my "London drive" (Ludlow-Warwick) (don't do it often) is about the same as Oswestry-Stafford. A shorter drive though would involve taking the train from Ludlow/Craven Arms via Crewe or via Newport..! So a longer train journey, with a change.

 

[Class 92]

Of those 3 stations, a 5-car 221 will only fit in the Down (northbound) platform at Whitchurch.
According to the Sectional Appendix, platform lengths are (Down/Up - metres):
Wem 78/87
Whitchurch 144/86
Nantwich 118/105
But there's always selective door opening.

Is Virgin looking at attaching/dividing with a Chester service at Crewe for this, or is it starting at Crewe and running via Shrewsbury and Telford with these stops on the way?
Not sure it's a serious prospect.

Has it been updated though because Whitchurch UP platform had a new footbridge placed and further towards the end of the platform meaning there would be a bit more room (don't know how much though).

 

[SprinterMan]

You really don't know the size of Shropshire do you?

Oswestry to Stafford would be over a 100 mile round trip.

It is not my idea, quite a few people were saying it in the comments section of the Shropshire Star article about the new services when they were first suggested. I am not suggesting people from Oswestry or Ludlow do, but I am suggesting that people from Telford and Wellington, and maybe Shrewsbury certainly do. The majority of the people making the comments appeared to be Telford residents. And I do know the size of Shropshire, I traverse it regularly.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

By the way, do you know what happened with Virgin's earlier Shrewsbury service? Wikipedia claims it only lasted a year, which seems a bit short for a trial.

Wikipedia is right in this case, I think it was pulled after a year due to it carrying very few passengers. Interestingly, it didn't stop at Wellington, just Telford and Shrewsbury.

Adam

 

[Gareth Marston]

It is not my idea, quite a few people were saying it in the comments section of the Shropshire Star article about the new services when they were first suggested. I am not suggesting people from Oswestry or Ludlow do, but I am suggesting that people from Telford and Wellington, and maybe Shrewsbury certainly do. The majority of the people making the comments appeared to be Telford residents. And I do know the size of Shropshire, I traverse it regularly.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Wikipedia is right in this case, I think it was pulled after a year due to it carrying very few passengers. Interestingly, it didn't stop at Wellington, just Telford and Shrewsbury.

Adam

BR's decision to withdrew the InterCity service was more to do with cost cutting in a recession and operational convenience than due to lack of demand. When IC West Coast introduced DVT's they found that there was reliability problems with attaching/detaching electric locos and putting 47's on instead which didn't occur when it was just locos and coaches. The early 90's recession lead to a substantial drop in passenger numbers and therefore revenue, IC West Coasts contribution to the subsequent cost cutting was to scrap its sub fleet of Class 47's. Blackpool, Shrewsbury and N Wales Coast all had loco changes. The N Wales coast trains went over to HST haulage. As well as a national drop in passenger numbers the Shrewsbury IC trains also had the Cambrian traffic that use to feed into them taken away as the Cambrian trains were timed to run to Birmingham in the hours in between them and Cambrian passengers had to change in West Midlands. BR also increased the price of a Saver from Shrewsbury to Euston to £58 when from Chester and Hereford they were still at £21. Then hey presto "no ones uses it".

The VT "red dinosaur" was a bit of a joke as it was once a day at times no one really used - they used very early morning and late evening slots.

Wrexham and Shropshire Business Plan was for it to be in the red for the first 4 years, its change of ownership did for it as DB Schenker wanted short term gain not to play the long game. This has been debated ad naseum on this forum. As they never had a level playing field due to moderation of competition well never know.

 

[SprinterMan]

BR's decision to withdrew the InterCity service was more to do with cost cutting in a recession and operational convenience than due to lack of demand. When IC West Coast introduced DVT's they found that there was reliability problems with attaching/detaching electric locos and putting 47's on instead which didn't occur when it was just locos and coaches. The early 90's recession lead to a substantial drop in passenger numbers and therefore revenue, IC West Coasts contribution to the subsequent cost cutting was to scrap its sub fleet of Class 47's. Blackpool, Shrewsbury and N Wales Coast all had loco changes. The N Wales coast trains went over to HST haulage. As well as a national drop in passenger numbers the Shrewsbury IC trains also had the Cambrian traffic that use to feed into them taken away as the Cambrian trains were timed to run to Birmingham in the hours in between them and Cambrian passengers had to change in West Midlands. BR also increased the price of a Saver from Shrewsbury to Euston to £58 when from Chester and Hereford they were still at £21. Then hey presto "no ones uses it".

The VT "red dinosaur" was a bit of a joke as it was once a day at times no one really used - they used very early morning and late evening slots.

Wrexham and Shropshire Business Plan was for it to be in the red for the first 4 years, its change of ownership did for it as DB Schenker wanted short term gain not to play the long game. This has been debated ad naseum on this forum. As they never had a level playing field due to moderation of competition well never know.

A superb insight there

The only thing I will say is that with WSMR, is that they reduced their number of trains per day from 5 to 4 and then to 3, before they made a profit. As good as they were, they were never going to win, under DB management or otherwise. The coaches are much better being used by Chiltern as they are now.

Adam

 

[merlodlliw]

BR's decision to withdrew the InterCity service was more to do with cost cutting in a recession and operational convenience than due to lack of demand. When IC West Coast introduced DVT's they found that there was reliability problems with attaching/detaching electric locos and putting 47's on instead which didn't occur when it was just locos and coaches. The early 90's recession lead to a substantial drop in passenger numbers and therefore revenue, IC West Coasts contribution to the subsequent cost cutting was to scrap its sub fleet of Class 47's. Blackpool, Shrewsbury and N Wales Coast all had loco changes. The N Wales coast trains went over to HST haulage. As well as a national drop in passenger numbers the Shrewsbury IC trains also had the Cambrian traffic that use to feed into them taken away as the Cambrian trains were timed to run to Birmingham in the hours in between them and Cambrian passengers had to change in West Midlands. BR also increased the price of a Saver from Shrewsbury to Euston to £58 when from Chester and Hereford they were still at £21. Then hey presto "no ones uses it".

The VT "red dinosaur" was a bit of a joke as it was once a day at times no one really used - they used very early morning and late evening slots.

Wrexham and Shropshire Business Plan was for it to be in the red for the first 4 years, its change of ownership did for it as DB Schenker wanted short term gain not to play the long game. This has been debated ad naseum on this forum. As they never had a level playing field due to moderation of competition well never know.

As for the North Wales/Euston HSTs, the number was cut from 6 a day using loco haul to Crewe & return to Holyhead to 3 HSTs, BR wanted the 3 HSTs routed to St Pancras adding an hour to the journeys, but this created outrage and Euston became diesel again, I often used the 1725VT ex Euston to Chester, manned by North Western staff from Crewe to Holyhead
I agree with W/S, the level playing field never occurred due to modcompi.
I also recall the Chester Pullman, run at a time no one would use it, or pay the premium.ah well

 

[D1009]

On a point of historical interest, did a through service to Shrewsbury last beyond the withdrawal of the through Aberystwyth service? I remember the Euston- Aberystwyth; after arrival at Shrewsbury the 47 used to run round and detach the first class and restaurant portion before the 37 could attach to the remaining coaches to continue to Aberystwyth. All this was supposed to take about 20 minutes, God knows how long it would take today!

 

[PHILIPE]

I did hear that when InterCity introduced the Shrewsbury extension and with the construction of the new station at Telford Central, Telford Council put in money to pay for the platforms at Telford Central to be built to a suitable length to accomodate the length of the IC trains.
However, on withdrawal, they asked for the additional money back but by the time they attempted to process this, privatisation had come along so nobody could say who they should claim from.
49,000 name petition signed for re-introduction but as suggested are they primarily from Telford.

 

[Gareth Marston]

On a point of historical interest, did a through service to Shrewsbury last beyond the withdrawal of the through Aberystwyth service? I remember the Euston- Aberystwyth; after arrival at Shrewsbury the 47 used to run round and detach the first class and restaurant portion before the 37 could attach to the remaining coaches to continue to Aberystwyth. All this was supposed to take about 20 minutes, God knows how long it would take today!

Was it six months or a year? Can't remember now. The well used UP 5 coach IC from Aberystwyth turned into a 2 car 158 with overcrowding and then customers deserted.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I did hear that when InterCity introduced the Shrewsbury extension and with the construction of the new station at Telford Central, Telford Council put in money to pay for the platforms at Telford Central to be built to a suitable length to accomodate the length of the IC trains.
However, on withdrawal, they asked for the additional money back but by the time they attempted to process this, privatisation had come along so nobody could say who they should claim from.
49,000 name petition signed for re-introduction but as suggested are they primarily from Telford.

Yep full length platforms with abandoned first class waiting rooms.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A superb insight there

The only thing I will say is that with WSMR, is that they reduced their number of trains per day from 5 to 4 and then to 3, before they made a profit. As good as they were, they were never going to win, under DB management or otherwise. The coaches are much better being used by Chiltern as they are now.

Adam

When I started university in Coventry in Oct 89 I used the CCE from Caersws or the IC to salop and change then it changed to picking up Cambrian trains at BHM INT or New St.

 

[Rich McLean]

For this service to work, they would have to run at the very least a Morning train to London and then an evening train back to Shrewsbury via Telford. If it doesn't go via Telford, then it won't be worth it. Plus this would provide extra capacity on the way into the West Midlands in the morning peak.

EDIT: Also to note, they have started using Voyagers on some West Midland diagrams, so in theory, with Voyagers running the Glasgows via BHM, it should be easier to split one of these trains at Wolves

 

[Gareth Marston]

As for the North Wales/Euston HSTs, the number was cut from 6 a day using loco haul to Crewe & return to Holyhead to 3 HSTs, BR wanted the 3 HSTs routed to St Pancras adding an hour to the journeys, but this created outrage and Euston became diesel again, I often used the 1725VT ex Euston to Chester, manned by North Western staff from Crewe to Holyhead
I agree with W/S, the level playing field never occurred due to modcompi.
I also recall the Chester Pullman, run at a time no one would use it, or pay the premium.ah well

And someone else had to sacrifice The HSTs. BR had their plans cut short by government, all cross country, Liverpool to Newcastle and Scottish triangle Glasgow-Edinburgh-Aberdeen plus extra sets for GW and MML were planned but it was vetoed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For this service to work, they would have to run at the very least a Morning train to London and then an evening train back to Shrewsbury via Telford. If it doesn't go via Telford, then it won't be worth it. Plus this would provide extra capacity on the way into the West Midlands in the morning peak.

The VT plans are dumb the Express or IC trains to Salop have always been extensions of West Midland trains. The 3/4 car dmus are struggling even in the off peak now a full length IC train will empty at New st and fill again with Shropshire traffic ( in standard anyway) if timed right. You then solve 2 problems in one.

 

[Rich McLean]

And someone else had to sacrifice The HSTs. BR had their plans cut short by government, all cross country, Liverpool to Newcastle and Scottish triangle Glasgow-Edinburgh-Aberdeen plus extra sets for GW and MML were planned but it was vetoed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The VT plans are dumb the Express or IC trains to Salop have always been extensions of West Midland trains. The 3/4 car dmus are struggling even in the off peak now a full length IC train will empty at New st and fill again with Shropshire traffic ( in standard anyway) if timed right. You then solve 2 problems in one.

Agreed. It would also be an ORCATS raid on that flow

 

[Bald Rick]

On a point of historical interest, did a through service to Shrewsbury last beyond the withdrawal of the through Aberystwyth service? I remember the Euston- Aberystwyth; after arrival at Shrewsbury the 47 used to run round and detach the first class and restaurant portion before the 37 could attach to the remaining coaches to continue to Aberystwyth. All this was supposed to take about 20 minutes, God knows how long it would take today!

It was timed at much less than 20 mins, about 14mins IIRC, and the former traffic supervisor at Shrewsbury will tell you they rarely made it!

 

[NickJ]

On the BBC Midlands Politics show today Tony Miles (of the Modern Railways magazine) said he was confident that the proposed new Virgin service to Shrewsbury would start next May 2014. I'm not sure where he got this information from but maybe there have been 'negotiations' between Virgin and Network Rail to find the necessary paths! An interesting development if true.

 

[387star]

Safe to say this has come as a surprise. The Birmingham-Scotland extenders announced a couple of weeks ago released a number of Voyagers, so one would presume Virgin were extremely confident about their bid. Bizarre Blackpool wasn't announced at the same time as well. Given Virgin's recent appeal success I wouldn't be surprised if this is overturned!!

I missed this what will happen to the voyagers

 

[Eagle]

Probably used to strengthen other Voyager services for the time being.

 

[EltonRoad]

On a point of historical interest, did a through service to Shrewsbury last beyond the withdrawal of the through Aberystwyth service? I remember the Euston- Aberystwyth; after arrival at Shrewsbury the 47 used to run round and detach the first class and restaurant portion before the 37 could attach to the remaining coaches to continue to Aberystwyth. All this was supposed to take about 20 minutes, God knows how long it would take today!

The through trains to Aberystwyth stopped in 1990 as I recall. The Shrewsbury trains continued to May 1992.

For some reason, the First Class, buffet and DVT got put on at Wolves in the up direction but taken off at Shrewsbury on the down trains.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The through trains to Aberystwyth stopped in 1990 as I recall. The Shrewsbury trains continued to May 1992.

For some reason, the First Class, buffet and DVT got put on at Wolves in the up direction but taken off at Shrewsbury on the down trains.

September 1991 for Aberystwyth your correct on Shrewsbury detail.