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Extra Virgin West Coast services rejected by NR

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SprinterMan

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Using that logic Hereford gets 30 trains a day to connect at Newport as well as through trains to Paddington and changes at Worcester off hourly service to New St. Combined that's 2 tph plus and through trains.

Malvern doesn't get the Newport trains, and going via BHM takes about 4 hours :P


Not all travellers can be tarred with that particular brush...:roll:

Not all travellers, not by a long shot hence sleepers and 1st class still exist, but the overwhelming demand is for cheap travel.

Adam :D
 
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Starmill

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Let's get it right. DB Arriva is a full business unit of DB Group (DB AG).
DB Regio used to run Chiltern, Tyne & Wear and the DB share of LOROL, but handed these to Arriva and retreated to German domestic operation only.
http://www.deutschebahn.com/en/group/business_units/dbarriva.html

Arriva is a UK plc and is absolutely not just a brand.

I think, my friend, you just melted my brain.

Seriously though, why does it all have to be so darn complicated!

You cheeky man ;) I think that while it was cold of DB, they ultimately made the right decision, as the coaches see far more use now, and carry more people. WSMR was brilliant when it came to comfort and customer service, but they never should have existed. I loved them, but they were from a different era. Their market was too small, and they ran into the same problem Singapore Airlines ran into. People want cheap and quick over luxury these day.

Adam :D

I don't think a Train Operating Company has ever produced such a tear-jerker :'(

https://audioboo.fm/boos/264347-jane-the-train-manager-on-one-of-the-last-wrexham-shropshire-trains

Wish I got to go on them now...
 
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Gareth Marston

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Malvern doesn't get the Newport trains, and going via BHM takes about 4 hours :P




Not all travellers, not by a long shot hence sleepers and 1st class still exist, but the overwhelming demand is for cheap travel.

Adam :D

Who said anything about traveling via New St? Change at Worcester off the New St trains for Great Malvern.
 

SprinterMan

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Who said anything about traveling via New St? Change at Worcester off the New St trains for Great Malvern.

Ah, I'm with you now ;)

Still, I stand by what I said, Shrewsbury is not better off with a couple of token services to London than what it is now. If it is to be done properly, then that would be better but I am very doubtful of demand.

Adam :D
 

Gareth Marston

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Ah, I'm with you now ;)

Still, I stand by what I said, Shrewsbury is not better off with a couple of token services to London than what it is now. If it is to be done properly, then that would be better but I am very doubtful of demand.

Adam :D

its also about capacity if - done properly- you fill the IC train up west of Birmingham with West Midlands-Shropshire/Wales folk in addition to London traffic.
 

SprinterMan

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its also about capacity if - done properly- you fill the IC train up west of Birmingham with West Midlands-Shropshire/Wales folk in addition to London traffic.

That is very true, and is the same reason the VT service was a pointless publicity stunt and WSMR ceased to exist.

Adam :D
 

stevread1

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The crawl around Stafford is probably to avoid the Coventry /Birmingham/Wolverhampton route which is rammed full of trains and is only double tracked.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Billions of pounds was spent on the WCML and NR/Railtrack promised a modern efficient railway.
Now a week never goes by without some incident south of Rugby with either overhead cables coming down or signal failures.
We suffered years of delays/diversions route closures while this went (WEST COST MODERNISATION) on with Virgin publicity promising that once it was over we would have a modern efficient railway. Now its coming out that the OHL equipment south of Rugby was not completely renewed.
When a train is delayed by NR the customer is still going to blame the TOC and its Virgin thats going to get blamed even if its not there fault. So I can see why Virgin are annoyed with NR.
 

TDK

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Let's get it right. DB Arriva is a full business unit of DB Group (DB AG).
DB Regio used to run Chiltern, Tyne & Wear and the DB share of LOROL, but handed these to Arriva and retreated to German domestic operation only.
http://www.deutschebahn.com/en/group/business_units/dbarriva.html

Arriva is a UK plc and is absolutely not just a brand.

Pasted from stock exchange information - maybe I read it wrong:

On 27 August 2010, Arriva plc was acquired by DB UK Holding Limited (a wholly-owned subsidiary of Deutsche Bahn AG). The final market price for Arriva plc Ordinary Shares is the closing market price on 25 August 2010. Arriva's shares delisted from the London Stock Exchange before opening of trading on 31 August 2010.
 

merlodlliw

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That is very true, and is the same reason the VT service was a pointless publicity stunt and WSMR ceased to exist.

Adam :D

What do you mean a pointless publicity stunt, I dont think endless meetings with stakeholders including NR staff was a stunt.

I note you have stayed clear of the VT line from Holyhead to Euston where some of the VT early morning services are almost empty to Chester calling at towns a fraction of the size of Telford & Shrewsbury, & yes I know its in the TOCs franchise agreement that the North Wales VTs have to run.
 
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I'm no expert on train paths but i guess with virgin getting knocked back with
the shrewsbury(maybe blackpool) direct service the faint hopes of any open access operators getting their foot in the door must be nil.

Would we have to wait until HS2 is built before we see any open access
trains on the west coast ?
 

Eagle

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Pasted from stock exchange information - maybe I read it wrong:

On 27 August 2010, Arriva plc was acquired by DB UK Holding Limited (a wholly-owned subsidiary of Deutsche Bahn AG). The final market price for Arriva plc Ordinary Shares is the closing market price on 25 August 2010. Arriva's shares delisted from the London Stock Exchange before opening of trading on 31 August 2010.

That is what happened, but then DB UK Holdings Ltd became branded as Arriva for all intents and purposes (I think DBUKH is still its legal name as registered at Companies House though).

It's not a PLC any more.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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That is what happened, but then DB UK Holdings Ltd became branded as Arriva for all intents and purposes (I think DBUKH is still its legal name as registered at Companies House though).
It's not a PLC any more.

We may be into semantics here, but the DB Group link I posted earlier says "Arriva plc" on it.
They publish results within the DB Group: http://www.arriva.co.uk/arriva/en/media_centre/press_releases/2013/2013-06-03/
and seem to have a great deal of autonomy.

I expect they are a nominal plc with one shareholder - DB.
DB UK Holdings will be the shell company for DB in the UK (which might include its Schenker interests as well).
I agree DB don't go out of their way to make their corporate structure clear!
 

Eagle

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I expect they are a nominal plc with one shareholder - DB.

Yeah, that's what I meant, a PLC in name only.

It's hideously confusing but I think that we can agree that if it's a passenger train or bus operation in the UK, and it's ultimately owned by DB AG, then it's safe to call it "Arriva".
 

northwichcat

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I'm no expert on train paths but i guess with virgin getting knocked back with
the shrewsbury(maybe blackpool) direct service the faint hopes of any open access operators getting their foot in the door must be nil.

ORR have already effectively said open access operators can't have any paths on the WCML unless there are spare ones at the next full recast, which is unlikely.

The proposed Bradford-Huddersfield-Stockport-London services have been effectively ruled out after Network Rail decided electrification alone will allow 6tph on North TPE - previously there had been plans for overtaking loops which alongside electrification wouldn't have ruled out an open access path for a 2 hourly service.
 

jimm

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We may be into semantics here, but the DB Group link I posted earlier says "Arriva plc" on it.
They publish results within the DB Group: http://www.arriva.co.uk/arriva/en/media_centre/press_releases/2013/2013-06-03/
and seem to have a great deal of autonomy.

I expect they are a nominal plc with one shareholder - DB.
DB UK Holdings will be the shell company for DB in the UK (which might include its Schenker interests as well).
I agree DB don't go out of their way to make their corporate structure clear!

There may be the odd reference to Arriva plc knocking about if they have not bothered to formally re-register the name at Companies House as plain Arriva, but the document you linked to and other parts of the website are very careful to just talk about Arriva. If you can't buy its shares on the stock market, it isn't a plc.
 

northwichcat

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IanXC

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There may be the odd reference to Arriva plc knocking about if they have not bothered to formally re-register the name at Companies House as plain Arriva, but the document you linked to and other parts of the website are very careful to just talk about Arriva. If you can't buy its shares on the stock market, it isn't a plc.

I don't think that's entirely correct. The difference between a Limited company, and a Public Limited Company is that a PLC has no way of controlling who owns its shares. A limited company can simply decline to sell shares to someone. Whilst PLCs are usually listed companies, they are not always, either through takeover or where PLC has been chosen as the appropriate legal status.

In the case of Arriva, it seems to me (and this is usual) that Arriva PLC continues to be a PLC, however its shares are all in the ownership of DB. Therefore its has been delisted from the stock exchange, and remains a PLC, even though you and I cannot buy shares due to them all being owned by DB.

There are very few companies who do not have to display their legal staus (LTD, PLC, LLP and so on) these are usually state owned businesses or those set up by specific legislation.
 

junglejames

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So you're saying Arriva would replace HSTs with Voyagers but First or Directly Operated Railways wouldn't. Are you sure the next EC or GW franchise won't go to Arriva? Remember Arriva is a subisdy of DB Regio now and so is Grand Central - a HST operator.

Yes im saying that. They will not be taking voyagers to replace HSTs. Its more expensive, and a lot worse for passengers. Will not happen. The closest would be 222s or 180s. But not voyagers


HSTs would stay on some of the secondary Great Western HST destinations in the short term but DfT are looking at cascaded 125mph DMUs or DEMUs on those services in the long term i.e. 180s or 22xs.

We shall see.




Yet Arriva XC seem to prefer doubled up Voyagers to HSTs? If the HSTs are cheaper to run then why do AXC keep HST use to a minimum and stretch the Voyagers as far as they can, including some doubled up Voyager diagrams?

Well known why that is. Its because of the way they are leased. Normal leasing, and HSTs would be cheaper, especially when comparing 8 cars. 4500hp v 6000hp, and HST engines being more efficient. Thats a lot less fuel for the HST, and cheaper maintenance.
 

SprinterMan

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What do you mean a pointless publicity stunt, I dont think endless meetings with stakeholders including NR staff was a stunt.

I note you have stayed clear of the VT line from Holyhead to Euston where some of the VT early morning services are almost empty to Chester calling at towns a fraction of the size of Telford & Shrewsbury, & yes I know its in the TOCs franchise agreement that the North Wales VTs have to run.

That is why I didn't mention it. There does seem to be a surplus of trains to London in the morning, I will give you that :P Shrewsbury should have at least through service a day to London, but if it doesn't run via BHM then there is little point to it, and it will fail to attract many passengers, and it will wither and die like so many before it. The North Wales services you say are unneccessary call at Chester and Crewe, then Nuneaton/Rugby/Milton Keynes, and are packed by journey's end.

Adam :D
 
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A common, but inaccurate, misconception. There are plenty of PLCs that don't have shares traded on any stock market.

Absolutely.

Companies in the UK can be one of the following two (there are now more variants for community companies etc, but these are the common ones for businesses)...

- private limited company ('Limited' or 'Ltd' after the name)

- public limited company ("PLC" after the name)

The latter one there can then either be listed on a stock exchange, or not. The difference between a PLC and a Ltd is that a PLC's shares can be traded publicly, whilst a Ltd's cannot be (hence "private").

A railway related example is if a heritage railway wants to sell shares it will have to be a public limited company. The shares are unlikely to be sold on a stock exchange (imagine that!) but there will be adverts in magazines, etc, and the shares will be generally available to the public.
 

HSTEd

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Normally the only way to escape the requirement for "limited" in your company name, assuming you want a limited company (and who wouldn't?) is to obtain a private member's bill to the effect of creating the company.
 

HSTEd

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But why would you want to "escape the requirement"?

Because you want to? Perhaps they wish to have a company name that does not contain "limited" for whatever reason, even if it is simply ego.


And it's not a private members bill - it's a "private bill" (there's also the hybrid bill too)...

If a private body was able to lobby the Government or the Official Opposition sufficiently to obtain a bill relating to a single company on official time there would rightly be a huge outcry.

Meaning that it would almost certainly be a private member's bill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_bill

A private members bill is any bill that is introduced by a backbencher/not the government.

Yes, and do you really expect a minister of the crown to produce a bill granting incorporation to a single body?
 
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If a private body was able to lobby the Government or the Official Opposition sufficiently to obtain a bill relating to a single company on official time there would rightly be a huge outcry.

Meaning that it would almost certainly be a private member's bill.

...do you really expect a minister of the crown to produce a bill granting incorporation to a single body?

Okay okay... just because I corrected you and explained the terms "private bill" and "private members bill". Jeez.

Yes, most (but not all) private bills will be introduced as a private members bill, but the point is that it is a private bill, not a public bill. Private members bills can be both public or private - the term merely describes who's introducing the bill to Parliament, ie a private (backbench) member. But that has no bearing as to the bill/Act's standing in law - it just explains how it was introduced in Parliament. What's important is whether a bill is private, hybrid or public.

Hybrid bills, which for example the Crossrail Act was one, are usually government bills, as they combine public and private concerns.
 
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CyrusWuff

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Network Rail? What is "limited by guarantee"?
I guess we are moving off-topic a bit :)

The general gist is that a company "limited by guarantee" is one where, instead of shareholders, you have "members" who agree to pay a fixed amount if the company is wound up, whereas a company "limited by shares" is one where the shareholders are liable for the unpaid value of the shares they hold.
 

anti-pacer

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If paths are being ruled out on the WCML by Network Rail, what would seriously be wrong with having the following;

Wrexham-Gobowen-Shrewsbury-Ludlow-Hereford-Abergavenny-Bristol Parkway-Reading-London Paddington

OK, Telford loses out but it opens up a new possibility for Shrewsbury.

I believe there's a bit of track in the Maindee area of Newport which would allow running from Abergavenny through to Bristol Parkway without having to go into Newport and reverse out.
 
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