Extra Virgin West Coast services rejected by NR

[Eagle]

DB Schenker - muscled out by the big boys? How much muscle?

Not DB Schenker, it was DB Regio UK (which by the time WSMR failed had already been merged into Arriva).

 

[The Planner]

But werent Virgin mentioning problems which were very unfair to blame on NR? Also, Virgin are just wasting everybodies time. Why cant they work together with NR, instead of against them. Try and at least look like a unified railway. Unless NR have shut up shop and arent talking to anybody, then fine.

They have, Chris Gibb was seconded to NR for six months and produced a report about what NR needs to be looking at and working on. It has been referenced and linked to on a number of threads. Whether NR are acting on all of it quickly enough I do not know.

 

[merlodlliw]

Are you referring here to the Wrexham and Shropshire rail company services that sadly met their demise.

Yes he is Paul, W/S sadly missed,

It used to have one but unfortunately this company was muscled out by the big boys

I support TDKs quote,that's exactly what happened.

 

[D1009]

The 4 car DMU's ATW run as the semi fast between Salop and BHM INTL are often full beyond capacity in peak and well used in off peak, the Wolverhampton VT trains are virtually empty outside peak. I've always seen extending wires to Salop as not only restoring through trains but freeing up capacity on Stour valley by replacing ATW DMU's with extended West Coast train which then carries a good-ish load in off peak west of Birmingham.

So stations Gobowen to Wrexham and the Cambrian would lose their through Birmingham services in order to provide through trains from Shrewsbury and Telford to London?

 

[northwichcat]

LOL. I doubt any current HST operators (bar XC) will be wanting to replace them with voyagers. FGW are adament HSTs are to keep running down to Penzance even once IEP arrives. They are showing absolutely no wish for voyagers. The stakeholders in Cornwall definitely dont want them either. I highly doubt EMT have any interest. Compared to the meridians and HSTs, voyagers are c**p. There is a reason Midland Mainline decided to make an awful lot of changes to the voyager design when they went for 222s.
As for EC. Again, can you really see it? Not a cat in hells chance.

So you're saying Arriva would replace HSTs with Voyagers but First or Directly Operated Railways wouldn't. Are you sure the next EC or GW franchise won't go to Arriva? Remember Arriva is a subisdy of DB Regio now and so is Grand Central - a HST operator.

Also remember National Express were set to use class 180s in the East Coast franchise which would have meant less intensive HST use than currently under East Coast.

HSTs would stay on some of the secondary Great Western HST destinations in the short term but DfT are looking at cascaded 125mph DMUs or DEMUs on those services in the long term i.e. 180s or 22xs.

Oh, and why do you mention 5 car HSTs? No HST operators have 5 car HSTs.

You've not heard of Grand Central then?

Anyway, dont be too sure they would be cheaper to run than a 5 car HST. I dont reckon there would be a lot in it. As for comparing an 8 car HST and voyagers. Even if an 8 car voyager was enough (which it wouldnt be), the HST would still be cheaper to run. Less fuel, cheaper maintenance, similar access charges.

Yet Arriva XC seem to prefer doubled up Voyagers to HSTs? If the HSTs are cheaper to run then why do AXC keep HST use to a minimum and stretch the Voyagers as far as they can, including some doubled up Voyager diagrams?

 

[D1009]

You've not heard of Grand Central then?

Grand Central's sets are now 2+6.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So stations Gobowen to Wrexham and the Cambrian would lose their through Birmingham services in order to provide through trains from Shrewsbury and Telford to London?

It would probably be an alternate hourly thing.
Also what's to stop the through London trains serving Shrewsbury-Chester?
The original First/VT bids had some kind of circular routeing via Chester.

 

[northwichcat]

Grand Central's sets are now 2+6.

OK didn't realise.

 

[cymro inside]

it ought to be still possible to provide shrewsbury and telford with a token London service by starting at telford then calling at shrewsbury and attaching at crewe to a chester or Holyhead starter.some of the chester services are only one set so it would double capacity on existing services and save paths .I would think that it would be possible to turnround at madeley junction for the return trip.

 

[pablo]

GWR?

 

[Proud Salopian]

it ought to be still possible to provide shrewsbury and telford with a token London service by starting at telford then calling at shrewsbury and attaching at crewe to a chester or Holyhead starter.some of the chester services are only one set so it would double capacity on existing services and save paths .I would think that it would be possible to turnround at madeley junction for the return trip.

Starting at Telford? How would that work? It's just two platforms alongside a double track line.

 

[SprinterMan]

Yet Arriva XC seem to prefer doubled up Voyagers to HSTs? If the HSTs are cheaper to run then why do AXC keep HST use to a minimum and stretch the Voyagers as far as they can, including some doubled up Voyager diagrams?

They way they are leased is very different. Voyagers are lease for a fixed price, whereas the HSTs are leased on a pay-per-use basis. It makes financial sense to Arriva to use the HSTs sparingly while getting their money's worth for they Voyagers.

it ought to be still possible to provide shrewsbury and telford with a token London service by starting at telford then calling at shrewsbury and attaching at crewe to a chester or Holyhead starter.some of the chester services are only one set so it would double capacity on existing services and save paths .I would think that it would be possible to turnround at madeley junction for the return trip.

That is an interesting idea but would be so slow, slower even than the Wrexham and Shropshire trains were. Token services are nice for name value, but they are really not necessary. I have just now had a look at some of the numbers, and I am now of the opinion that Shrewsbury does not need a direct service to London.

Shrewsbury and Hereford are comparable, yes? Both on the Welsh Marches line, both the County Town of a county, similar population (Hereford 60,000, Shrewsbury 70,000), similar distance from London (Hereford 130 miles, Shrewsbury 160 miles) etc.

Comparing the train services to London:

Hereford gets 6 HSTs to Paddington per day, which take well over 3 hours. It is quicker to go via Newport, which is hourly for the whole day, and takes a fraction less than 3 hours. This is how I would imagine most people would get to London.

Shrewsbury has no direct trains to London since Wrexham & Shropshire sadly (but inevitably) went bankrupt in 2011. But they get many excellent connections to London every hour. Below is an excerpt from the timetable:

     AW   VT   AW   VT   AW   VT   LM   VT
SHR 1000 ---- 1018 ---- 1032 ---- 1047 ----
CRE 1029 1056 1109 1129 ---- ---- ---- ---- 
WVH ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- 1136 1145
BHM ---- ---- ---- ---- 1128 1150 ---- ---- 
EUS ---- 1238 ---- 1304 ---- 1314 ---- 1332

SHR - Shrewsbury
CRE - Crewe
WVH - Wolverhampton
BHM - Birmingham New Street
EUS - London Euston

All of these trains take around 2h45 to get to London, and it is like this for most of the day. Arriva's 158 and 175 stock are very nice inside, so people aren't losing out on train quality. I honestly don't believe there is demand for more trains to London, let alone one that reverses at Stafford and crawls round the Wolverhampton avoiding curve at 15mph. On the newspaper websites, people comment that it is still quicker than the new direct service would have been to drive to Stafford and hop on the non-stop Virgin service to London. I know this might be a bit controversial, but I honestly do not believe that this service is needed.

Adam

 

[transmanche]

Shrewsbury has no direct trains to London since Wrexham & Shropshire sadly (but inevitably) went bankrupt in 2011. But they get many excellent connections to London every hour.

All of these trains take around 2h45 to get to London, and it is like this for most of the day. Arriva's 158 and 175 stock are very nice inside, so people aren't losing out on train quality. I honestly don't believe there is demand for more trains to London, let alone one that reverses at Stafford and crawls round the Wolverhampton avoiding curve at 15mph. On the newspaper websites, people comment that it is still quicker than the new direct service would have been to drive to Stafford and hop on the non-stop Virgin service to London. I know this might be a bit controversial, but I honestly do not believe that this service is needed.

You make a good point. Although travelling from Shrewsbury to Euston via Crewe is more expensive than travelling via Birmingham.

Off peak return £66.90 Any Permitted (valid via Crewe)
Off peak return £53.60 Via Birmingham

As it is, since the demise of WSMR, my Mum now travels from Gobowen to London either a) via Chester on an Advance (sub 3 hour journey) or b) via Chiltern (split-ticketing with an Advance from Moor Street). And whilst she preferred the direct service, she really likes the train from Chester (yes, some people do like Voyagers!)

 

[SprinterMan]

You make a good point. Although travelling from Shrewsbury to Euston via Crewe is more expensive than travelling via Birmingham.

Off peak return £66.90 Any Permitted (valid via Crewe)
Off peak return £53.60 Via Birmingham

As it is, since the demise of WSMR, my Mum now travels from Gobowen to London either a) via Chester on an Advance (sub 3 hour journey) or b) via Chiltern (split-ticketing with an Advance from Moor Street). And whilst she preferred the direct service, she really likes the train from Chester (yes, some people do like Voyagers!)

I also think Voyagers are great :P The any permitted ticket is more expensive, but there are also many cheap advance tickets via Crewe (although still more costly than via the West Midlands).

Adam

 

[TDK]

Could you not argue though that if the infrastructure was in a better situation than it is that it could cope with the extra use? Surely that is what Virgin is on about? As people have already mentioned, i think this now leads to the chat about if the WCML south is now full, or whether the paths could be released once a better handle on the infrastructure has happened.

WSMR were alocated paths on their diversions on the WCML when the Chilterns were closed during the upgrade to EV3, WSMR just followed a pendo at 110mph as well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Shrewsbury has no direct trains to London since Wrexham & Shropshire sadly (but inevitably) went bankrupt in 2011. But they get many excellent connections to London every hour. Below is an excerpt from the timetable:

Wrexham and Shropshire did not go bust they were shut down
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

it ought to be still possible to provide shrewsbury and telford with a token London service by starting at telford then calling at shrewsbury and attaching at crewe to a chester or Holyhead starter.some of the chester services are only one set so it would double capacity on existing services and save paths .I would think that it would be possible to turnround at madeley junction for the return trip.

There is no profit in Telford to London as WSMR found out, the profit to be made is from Shrewsbury, there will be too much faffing about to start at Telford.

 

[SprinterMan]

Wrexham and Shropshire did not go bust they were shut down.

Because they were losing huge amounts of money :P Sorry, I used the wrong terminology. At least their excellent stock has gone to a better place where it will see more use.

Adam

 

[TDK]

Not DB Schenker, it was DB Regio UK (which by the time WSMR failed had already been merged into Arriva).

Arriva were merged (bought by DB) Arriva is just a brand name now and not a company, DB is the company. DB regio was run originally by Chiltern bosses, this changed when DB bought Arriva.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because they were losing huge amounts of money :P Sorry, I used the wrong terminology. At least their excellent stock has gone to a better place where it will see more use.

Adam

The stock didn't just go! Do not always believe what you read. Have you seen how much the company now using this stock lost last year? WSMR losses were a drop in the ocean.

 

[cymro inside]

I don't see any problem with just two platforms at telford, ecs central rivers to wolves to pick up catering staff then ecs to telford down platform to form eus via shrewsbury service then in the opposite direction terminate at up plat at telford and ecs to madeley junction for reverse movement back into down plat at telford for an afternoon run to eus, journey time of 2h 35m or less on through service from salop via crewe would be better than no direct trains, in fact even one a day would be better than nothing. many people would purchase advance tickets so the fact that the via crewe fare is higher ought not put too many people off.

 

[northwichcat]

Arriva is just a brand name now and not a company

Not exactly. It's actually DB Regio UK Limited that is a dormant company and Arriva UK Trains Limited that took over responsibility for all DB Regio's UK rail operations including Chiltern that was previously under DB Regio UK Limited. Presumably it was easier for DB Regio to do that as Arriva UK Trains Limited would have been bigger so less employees to transfer across.

 

[SprinterMan]

The stock didn't just go! Do not always believe what you read. Have you seen how much the company now using this stock lost last year? WSMR losses were a drop in the ocean.

Oh, I see. DB shut down WSMR to get their hands on the refurbished coaches for Chiltern. Crafty....

Adam

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Arriva were merged (bought by DB) Arriva is just a brand name now and not a company, DB is the company. DB regio was run originally by Chiltern bosses, this changed when DB bought Arriva.

Not exactly. It's actually DB Regio UK Limited that is a dormant company and Arriva UK Trains Limited that took over responsibility for all DB Regio's UK rail operations including Chiltern that was previously under DB Regio UK Limited. Presumably it was easier for DB Regio to do that as Arriva UK Trains Limited would have been bigger so less employees to transfer across.

Let's get it right. DB Arriva is a full business unit of DB Group (DB AG).
DB Regio used to run Chiltern, Tyne & Wear and the DB share of LOROL, but handed these to Arriva and retreated to German domestic operation only.
http://www.deutschebahn.com/en/group/business_units/dbarriva.html

Arriva is a UK plc and is absolutely not just a brand.

 

[Gareth Marston]

So stations Gobowen to Wrexham and the Cambrian would lose their through Birmingham services in order to provide through trains from Shrewsbury and Telford to London?

Just looking logically at when wires arrive from oxley Jnc to salop, the alternatives are of course IEP / dragging / or sacrilege to some LHCS and change of loco. Also I think we have to move away from seeing a full IC set as a London train but also a capacity provider. FGW Swansea to Paddington trains are just as much about Internal Welsh flows through Brigend, Cardiff, Newport etc

I would still want some weekday through trains to Cambrian maybe 2 mon to thu and then 4 fri/sat

 

[TDK]

Oh, I see. DB shut down WSMR to get their hands on the refurbished coaches for Chiltern. Crafty....

Adam

That is your opinion

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The 4 car DMU's ATW run as the semi fast between Salop and BHM INTL are often full beyond capacity in peak and well used in off peak, the Wolverhampton VT trains are virtually empty outside peak. I've always seen extending wires to Salop as not only restoring through trains but freeing up capacity on Stour valley by replacing ATW DMU's with extended West Coast train which then carries a good-ish load in off peak west of Birmingham.

My ex boss did a study on wiring to Salop - and it wasn't the best business case in the world , but was on the right side. Just.

Assumptions were an all day EMU off Brum and some early Wolves 390 sets back extended to Salop - and some off peak workings through using what was then some slack time.

Maybe not for now - but for later on , perhaps.

Whatever assumptions you make on marginal use of stock - you are a hostage to fortune ! (as diagrams etc can change so quickly !)

 

[SprinterMan]

That is your opinion

You cheeky man I think that while it was cold of DB, they ultimately made the right decision, as the coaches see far more use now, and carry more people. WSMR was brilliant when it came to comfort and customer service, but they never should have existed. I loved them, but they were from a different era. Their market was too small, and they ran into the same problem Singapore Airlines ran into. People want cheap and quick over luxury these day.

Adam

 

[TDK]

You cheeky man I think that while it was cold of DB, they ultimately made the right decision, as the coaches see far more use now, and carry more people. WSMR was brilliant when it came to comfort and customer service, but they never should have existed. I loved them, but they were from a different era. Their market was too small, and they ran into the same problem Singapore Airlines ran into. People want cheap and quick over luxury these day.

Adam

Indeed, the idea was great but the timing was poor, when you think about it WSMR would have been extracting money from ATW, XC. LM & Chiltern, with 3 of these toc's being DB why would DB want to keep them in tow? Chiltern did need new stock and the 172's were far too expensive, with the stock and also the loco's belonging to DB (the locos are rosco) the move was inevitable. Chiltern spent a lot of money on EG3 and need extra stock for the Oxford link so the mk3's were by far the cheapest option for them so they could use the 168's for the new Oxford link. There was also ATW chasing the stock for the WAG and I could only think the timing of the shut down was critical for Chilterns interests.

If WSMR had started 2 years later when the moderation of competition had been lifted it may have been a different story.

This is all my own opinion and I have no source for this information
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My ex boss did a study on wiring to Salop - and it wasn't the best business case in the world , but was on the right side. Just.

Assumptions were an all day EMU off Brum and some early Wolves 390 sets back extended to Salop - and some off peak workings through using what was then some slack time.

Maybe not for now - but for later on , perhaps.

Whatever assumptions you make on marginal use of stock - you are a hostage to fortune ! (as diagrams etc can change so quickly !)

I believe there are 2 or 3 dridges that will need to be rebuilt and this has escaleted the cost of wiring this section of track, Crewe to Chetser is the same. With the cost involved I do not think the return would high enough to merit the cost of wiring this section of track without continuing it to Crewe and Chester.

 

[Proud Salopian]

I have just now had a look at some of the numbers, and I am now of the opinion that Shrewsbury does not need a direct service to London.

Shrewsbury and Hereford are comparable, yes? Both on the Welsh Marches line, both the County Town of a county, similar population (Hereford 60,000, Shrewsbury 70,000), similar distance from London (Hereford 130 miles, Shrewsbury 160 miles) etc.

But it's not just Shrewsbury - it's "Shrewsbury and Telford", with a population of over 200,000 served by three stations (Shrewsbury, Wellington, Telford Central).

 

[SprinterMan]

But it's not just Shrewsbury - it's "Shrewsbury and Telford", with a population of over 200,000 served by three stations (Shrewsbury, Wellington, Telford Central).

If we are going down that road then Hereford gets Malvern, Worcester and Moreton-in-Marsh too :P Telford gets the equivalent of 2tph to London with only 1 change, and there is not a big enough market to warrant more trains than this, as InterCity, Virgin and WSMR have all found out over the years.

Adam

 

[Gareth Marston]

If we are going down that road then Hereford gets Malvern, Worcester and Moreton-in-Marsh too :P Telford gets the equivalent of 2tph to London with only 1 change, and there is not a big enough market to warrant more trains than this, as InterCity, Virgin and WSMR have all found out over the years.

Adam

Using that logic Hereford gets 30 trains a day to connect at Newport as well as through trains to Paddington and changes at Worcester off hourly service to New St. Combined that's 2 tph plus and through trains.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

People want cheap and quick over luxury these day.

Not all travellers can be tarred with that particular brush...:roll: