Extra Airport Trains Result in Competing Bus Ban.

[matt_world2004]

I'm interested in hearing how the much larger airports handle this. I'm guessing TfL don't pay Heathrow an access fee for their buses to use the airport. In fact, I think I'm right in saying that Heathrow pay TfL to run an improved Piccadilly line service into London.

There is a revenue share for journeys with an origin and destinstion of terminal 5 piccadilly for a certain period of time, at the end of the period tfl will keep all the revenue from ticket sales.

The track access charges for tfl rail serving the airport stations are ridculous and tfl went to court over them and won. IIRC despite winning they are about £500 a train movement into heathrow junction. Requiring an average loading of 41 pay as you go paying passengers on the tfl Rail between hayes and heathrow and 41 travelling the other direction just to recoup the track access fee. If a standard zone 6 fare was charged for heathrow Airport it would require an average loading of 166 pay as you go passengers to recoup the track access fee.

 

[darloscott]

Heathrow do fund many bus services especially overnight as well as the free travel zone of course!
I get that Stobart probably are funding the early/late trains (I'm guessing GA wouldn't run these commercially!) so they won't want a pesky bus competing with these however it did really serve a different market, as pointed out the first wave of departures usually starts around 0600 so a train arriving at 0530 isn't much use for those.

 

[Mwanesh]

When i look at the other airports and local buses they handle them well . Luton , Stansted , Heathrow ,Gatwick, Birmingham and Bristol all have local buses with no hassle .Stobarts are just being petty .Not every passenger comes by train

 

[Man of Kent]

My understanding of that ruling, in 2012, was only at bus stations either owned, or managed by an operator.

Thank you - I knew PTE and local authority bus stations were excluded, but had not realised that so were others. Given how the order arose, I suppose there was no legal basis to extend it to bus stations owned privately by non-bus operators.

 

[radamfi]

When i look at the other airports and local buses they handle them well . Luton , Stansted , Heathrow ,Gatwick, Birmingham and Bristol all have local buses with no hassle .Stobarts are just being petty .Not every passenger comes by train

We're talking about a long distance service here. Bristol airport doesn't even have a rail station! Arguably, neither does Luton.

 

[CM]

We're talking about a long distance service here. Bristol airport doesn't even have a rail station! Arguably, neither does Luton.

Luton Airport Parkway...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Luton Airport Parkway...

To be fair to Radamfi, I think that's why he was saying "arguably"..... It's a Parkway station so it's a couple of miles from the airport necessitating a trip on a shuttle bus rather than being located within the airport itself.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Heathrow do fund many bus services especially overnight as well as the free travel zone of course!
...

I think the Heathrow "Freeflow" free travel zone is essentially the result of some sort of planning agreement with the local authority, rather than something Heathrow Airport came up with off their own back.

 

[Glenn1969]

Did First Bus put pressure on the airport to ban EnsignBus? I know up here they don't always have a great record for welcoming competition

 

[Samuel88]

Did First Bus put pressure on the airport to ban EnsignBus? I know up here they don't always have a great record for welcoming competition

Ensignbus weren't in competition with the x30.

 

[RT4038]

I'm interested in hearing how the much larger airports handle this. I'm guessing TfL don't pay Heathrow an access fee for their buses to use the airport. In fact, I think I'm right in saying that Heathrow pay TfL to run an improved Piccadilly line service into London.

Heathrow doesn't have low cost carriers, and there is probably reasons for that - such as high landing charges compared with other airports in the vicinity. Heathrow has a departure charge regime similar to normal bus stations around the country (i.e. related to the cost of providing the bus facilities) for both registered local bus and scheduled coach services, these services on agreement. (i.e. not exactly 'de-regulated' as in the sense of public roads outside the perimeter). Quite a fee for private hire pick ups though. At some other airports registered local bus services will have this same departure charge regime, but longer distance services will have an additional 'commercial agreement' to pay, typically, a % of revenue, or an agreed sum, to the airport (which is then used to subsidise landing fees and therefore cheaper air fares). This agreement may include restricting the number of operators on a route from the airport, but the CMA take a dim view of monopoly agreements (such as the Luton Airport case)

Registered local bus services do not have a right of access on airport private roads (to reach the bus station), so the Airport could decline anything they saw as reducing their revenue from 'commercial' agreement services, but usually encourage services to bring local workers thereby releasing car parking space to full price paying passengers.

Some small airports are just pleased that an operator is prepared to operate anything commercial to their airport, and have no charges at all.....

 

[Glenn1969]

I fail to see how one bus a day that provides a night bus service from a small airport to London can possibly be viewed as a threat by anybody to ne honest

 

[RT4038]

I fail to see how one bus a day that provides a night bus service from a small airport to London can possibly be viewed as a threat by anybody to ne honest

In the big picture will be an agreement somewhere about Airport-London traffic, and this won't involve a bus service like this. If the Airport are concerned about night access, they'll arrange the service within this agreement.

 

[radamfi]

There is no longer a need for the bus service and it seems odd that Ensign would want to keep operating it given that there would probably be very little patronage now that there is a train service. Presumably they don't even need to give notice of the service cancellation given the circumstances, so that makes them lucky if anything. The owners are notoriously anti-rail and anti-integration in public forums. It is perhaps notable that Grays is one of the biggest towns not to take part in the Plusbus scheme. The Brentwood Plusbus scheme excludes Ensign services.

 

[F Great Eastern]

There is no longer a need for the bus service and it seems odd that Ensign would want to keep operating it given that there would probably be very little patronage now that there is a train service. .

It gives earlier arrivals at the airport and later departures than the train and also serves some place the train doesn't.

 

[radamfi]

also serves some place the train doesn't.

So why not run it at more sociable times if there is a genuine requirement for a service between the intermediate points and the airport?

 

[F Great Eastern]

So why not run it at more sociable times if there is a genuine requirement for a service between the intermediate points and the airport?

Because for many commercial services to be viable, they have to target people from multiple places, it's likely that whilst there was demand for the unique places on it's own, that alone wasn't enough to make the service viable.

 

[Busaholic]

There is no longer a need for the bus service and it seems odd that Ensign would want to keep operating it given that there would probably be very little patronage now that there is a train service. Presumably they don't even need to give notice of the service cancellation given the circumstances, so that makes them lucky if anything. The owners are notoriously anti-rail and anti-integration in public forums. It is perhaps notable that Grays is one of the biggest towns not to take part in the Plusbus scheme. The Brentwood Plusbus scheme excludes Ensign services.

If no-one used the bus service then Ensign would presumably cancel it: as it would not be subsidised by any body that would be their decision alone. You seem to have a 'down' on Ensign for some reason. As for Plusbus schemes, as so many operators refuse to advertise it in any form they're more honoured in the breach than the observance. There was an article in 'Buses' magazine two or three years ago by an industry insider detailing his trip to Cornwall, planned months in advance, which he intended to access by First GWR trains and then go on to use First Kernow bus services and local GWR trains. His frustration at trying to access detailed information was palpable, and he duly lambasted First. A follow-up letter from an ex- Senior Traffic Commissioner in the next issue added more fuel, the first time I've ever seen one from someone occupying that position: mind you, I've only been reading the mag since 1958, though!

 

[Joe Paxton]

Just to add - I don't know when it was withdrawn, but National Express did operate a similarly timed late night / early morning service from and to Southend Airport, which began in March 2016:
www.buyingbusinesstravel.com/news/2525495-southend-airport-adds-new-coach-service/

It is still mentioned on this Visit London webpage, so I assume the service's withdrawal was recent:
www.visitlondon.com/traveller-information/travel-to-london/airport/london-southend-airport

From the airport it then called at Stratford (East London), Liverpool Street station and finally Victoria Coach Station.

However as stated in the first article, Southend airport "worked with National Express to provide this new service", which is code for some sort of financial supporting from the airport for the coach service.

 

[option]

More than a slice apparently, the majority.

The Arrangement with GA is somewhat of a cash cow for Southend Airport, some online sources are claiming that they get more than half of the ticket revenue from GA, so for every person who uses Ensighbus over the train, that's a decent sum to lose for each passenger and the presence of a bus service may have kicked GA into action.

I'm not saying that is what has happened, but it's possible since with the amount of money that Southend Airport are making from the rail service, they don't want any big competition to that and if there is a bus route that does prove demand then this can be used as leverage with GA to run extra rail services.

Presumably GA can show that those tickets are not being subsidised by taxpayers or passengers in any way

 

[borage]

Ensignbus have reached an agreement with the airport, and the service will resume on Saturday: https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/17938023.new-bus-service-makes-southend-airport-easier-ever-access/