Extending the XC franchise

[Waverley125]

it occurred to me that firstly

-XC doesn't cover nearly the area it should

and secondly

-many of the routes are truncated

so i was wondering what should be done. And the things that came up for me, were:

1) Norwich-Liverpool needs to be integrated in, with reduced stops throughout the journey (i.e. Thetford, Ely, Peterborough, Grantham, Nottingham, Alfreton, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Stoockport, Piccadilly, Oxford road, Warrington, Liverpool)

2) Nottingham-Cardiff needs to be extended, preferably north to Lincoln & South to Swansea

3) Stansted-Birmingham ought to be extended north west to Shrewsbury (additional calls at Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Telford & Wellington)

 

[djw1981]

I think the reason that DfT reduced the size of XC was to introduce more local accountability.

 

[snuk]

I'm not sure Arriva can cope with what they've got - I've read they're looking for government help - personally I preferred XC in the Virgin days.

Steve.

 

[O L Leigh]

it occurred to me that firstly

-XC doesn't cover nearly the area it should

and secondly

-many of the routes are truncated

so i was wondering what should be done.

I don't agree. There is a temptation to look at these services on a large-scale to see how they fit in nationally, but the risk with this approach is that you can easily miss the smaller scale local issues.

And the things that came up for me, were:

1) Norwich-Liverpool needs to be integrated in, with reduced stops throughout the journey (i.e. Thetford, Ely, Peterborough, Grantham, Nottingham, Alfreton, Chesterfield, Sheffield, Stoockport, Piccadilly, Oxford road, Warrington, Liverpool)

Reducing the stops on cross-country services such as this would only serve a minority interest. I honestly don't believe that there is a huge demand from folk travelling from end to end on this service, but there is a good demand for a service from Attleborough and Wymondham to Norwich.

It seems to me that between EMT and NXEA, a decent frequency of service can be provided from all the more intensively used stations between Ely and Norwich without the need to run a slow "all shacks" service. Cutting out all intermediate stops except Thetford would alienate a large number of users, as would the need to bring back the "all shacks" service that such a measure would demand. While I'm talking specifically about the Ely-Norwich route, I'm sure the same principles hold true for other sections of this route and, indeed, other routes on the XC network.

2) Nottingham-Cardiff needs to be extended, preferably north to Lincoln & South to Swansea

3) Stansted-Birmingham ought to be extended north west to Shrewsbury (additional calls at Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Telford & Wellington)

Extending services needlessly is a surefire way to import delays which can ultimately result in service cancellations, amended stopping patterns or services being terminated short. All of these effectively add up to the same thing; poor service to the passenger.

I don't consider it unreasonable for passengers to change onto a different train at interchange stations such as Brum New St and Nottingham or Derby. There is certainly going to be insufficient demand among Shrewsbury passengers for a service to Stansted Airport and among Lincoln passengers for a service to Swansea to rule out any extensions. However, there is almost certainly going to be an outcry from those people who use the core busy sections of these routes if the level of service deteriorates due to imported delays as a consequence of the extra distance that the train has to come. Therefore there has to be a balancing act where the TOC has to weigh up the likely consequences of additional delays against an the need to change trains.

This is where I consider that Central Trains went wrong because they were trying to balance the needs of so many different areas across such a large region, and unfortunately it didn't work. Now that you have EMT concentrating on the East Midlands and LM concentrating on the West Midlands, it is possible to address each region's transport needs seperately and actually provide the services each needs. Trying to join all these areas together in a never ending chain dot-to-dot style while getting the maximum efficiency out of the rolling stock (and staff) and providing a realistic journey time between start and finish points is going to result in a bad compromise that just soaks up paths and resources while not ever really being likely to address any particular need.

I applaud the sentiment, but idealism has to be tempered by realism. Unless trains go where people want them to go at the times they want to travel, folk won't use them.

O L Leigh

 

[The Planner]

One route XC should get is Cardiff - Manchester. Thats crying out for a proper intercity service, get some 5 car Voyagers on it.

 

[323235]

One route XC should get is Cardiff - Manchester. Thats crying out for a proper intercity service, get some 5 car Voyagers on it.

Never in a million Years

The Welsh Assembly Government would go mental if they tried that

Also

Nottingham - Cardiff
New Street - Stansted
should have been given to London Midland

and EMT shoud have got some Turdostars


Either way now London Midland should be replacing all its 170s with 172s so other companies can have its 170s.
What I find Strange is that LM have only ordered 27 x 172s to replace 28 Class 150s
That means the government have made no fresh allowance to provide increased Strengnthening at peak time and firmly tackle overcrowding.

 

[thefab444]

The latter two idea the OP raised are not particularly viable and would require far more valuable stock than is worthwhile. The first isn't a bad idea though, just retain some of the local stops.

What the proper XC network needs is expansion. Bring back Poole, Portsmouth, Brighton, more services to Cardiff and Swansea from the NE, and possibly more summer additionals to Weymouth and Ramsgate (Newquay isn't the only popular seaside resort you know). Also, limited services to stations such as Didcot, Solihull and Congleton should be restored.

Of course, paying for all of this may be tricky.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

I do remember in Virgin XC days many many many years ago catching a Virgin HST from Bridgend to Newport, I believe it had come from Swansea and I can't honestly remember the destination, but they operated over that route at some stage.

 

[Bittern]

I just wish they would run more trains to Glasgow Central.

 

[LilLoaf]

I do remember in Virgin XC days many many many years ago catching a Virgin HST from Bridgend to Newport, I believe it had come from Swansea and I can't honestly remember the destination, but they operated over that route at some stage.

The HST's to and from Swansea useally started / finished at Newcastle. I think SOME may have went via the West Coast to Glasgow / Edinbrugh.

I remember the days (dispite only beging a kid them) when you could get a train from Glasgow - Edinburgh to Bournemouth - Plymouth - Penzance. There were trains from Aberdeen - Dundee - Edinburgh via the East Coast though to Birmingham - Reading - Bournemouth. Also onto the West Country as like today.

I remember a Voyager leaving Edinburgh at 1040 going through to Brighton via Manchester - birmingham and Reading. Think there may have been 2 or even 3 a day ran like this.

There were even trains in the summer from Birmingham (Perhaps from further north of Birmingham) through to Ramsgate, Yes Ramsgate. That tends to get forgot about now.

When operation princes kicked in there were trains leaving Birmingham at XX.33 through to Reading, Portsmouth - Guildford - Brighton - Gatwick. Differant hours differant destinations off course.

Services also ran into London Paddington (though i'm not sure of the point of that myself). Services also ran to Weymouth.


Now look what we have left out of that lot. CrossCountry travel isn't really across the country anymore. Well not like it used to be anyway.

 

[thefab444]

Indeed, there were a few trains per day to Paddington.

The Ramsgate got pulled in 1998 or 1999, and was usually Deltic hauled - IIRC it came down as 07.xx Wolverhampton - Ramsgate, and the return took up the path of the 14.18 Paddington - Edinburgh from Acton. Anyone know what stations it called at?

The shadow privatisation TOC "Cross Country Trains" also ran a summer Saturday service to Eastbourne (diverted from Brighton) but this was not continued by Virgin.

 

[43106]

To clarify some uncertainties on this thread...
1) There was a XC train a day to and from Swansea to Birmingham and beyond, though where it was beyond to/from, I don't know. The service to Cardiff improved in 2002, though by 2003, nothing went west of Cardiff. The service DIRECT to South Wales was completely withdrawn in Summer 2004, though there was (still is) an daily extension of a single Birmingham - Bristol service.
2) The service to Ramsgate was, I think, Saturdays and/or Sundays Only. The Monday - Friday service stopped at Bromley South, Chatham, Faversham, Canterbury East, Dover Priory and Dover Western Docks. It was withdrawn in early 1993.
3) Paddington services were withdrawn for the start of the 2003 Summer Timetable.
4) Services to Weymouth stopped BEFORE the summer of 1992, though a few journeys terminated at Poole, though this, too, was discontinued in early 2003.
I thought the XC services to Portsmouth were a damned good idea. They were introduced in the summer of 1998, but pulled in the summer of 2003. I think they should be re-introduced, but with much better timings. It used to be the case that 3 left Portsmouth in the morning, and 3 arrived in the afternoon/evening. I think there should be a train every 6 hours throughout the day. There should be similar services to Paddington and Brighton. Why did Brighton services NEVER stop at Clapham Junction? It would have been very useful.
I've just remembered - there was a service to Harwich & Parkeston Quay. I THINK it was actually before HSTs and would have been a 47. Apparently it started from Manchester and went via Birmingham and Coventry. It must have gone down the WCML and come off it at Primrose Hill. It would then have gone along the North London Line to Stratford then followed the line to Harwich. This service stopped BEFORE 1992.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

In my opinion bus companys should keep to busses and leave the rail industry alone! bring back the good old GNER,

 

[90019]

In my opinion bus companys should keep to busses and leave the rail industry alone! bring back the good old GNER,

So who do you propose run most UK TOCs instead then?

 

[me123]

In my opinion bus companys should keep to busses and leave the rail industry alone! bring back the good old GNER,

I recently looked at all UK TOCs. The only franchised ones that did not have a bus division as far as I could see were NedRail(Northern +Merseyrail) and Chiltern (DB). I may have missed others, but I'm pretty sure every other company has a bus division somewhere.

So I can only echo 90019's question; if "bus companies" were to leave trains alone, who's going to run them?

 

[Proud Salopian]

Two routes I'd love XC to do:

Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury-Birmingham-Stansted
Holyhead-Wrexham-Shrewsbury-Cardiff

Don't think ATW or the WAG would like it though. :roll:

 

[thefab444]

2) The service to Ramsgate was, I think, Saturdays and/or Sundays Only. The Monday - Friday service stopped at Bromley South, Chatham, Faversham, Canterbury East, Dover Priory and Dover Western Docks. It was withdrawn in early 1993.

This is incorrect, the VXC Ramsgate service ran during 1998 and 1999 using a Deltic (causing much froth). It used the path of the 1418 Paddington - Edinburgh (1S87).

4) Services to Weymouth stopped BEFORE the summer of 1992, though a few journeys terminated at Poole, though this, too, was discontinued in early 2003.

This is also incorrect, services to Weymouth were pulled around 2002 and 2003, and Poole in 2003 also. Prior to this the majority of services went to Poole, with a handful to Bournemouth, and two per day on Saturdays to Weymouth (this was certainly the case in 2001), returning to Livepool and Manchester IIRC. XC should definately still serve Liverpool, possibly alternating with the current Manchester service from Bournemouth.

The 2001 TT I have shows some very interesting Sunday services from Portsmouth, an afternoon northbound working to Manchester AND Preston (presumably formed 2 x 158).

 

[Pumbaa]

There should be similar services to Paddington and Brighton. Why did Brighton services NEVER stop at Clapham Junction? It would have been very useful.

The XC services running through Clapham had to use P16 heading up and P17 heading down. With 23m coaches, this is a safety issue on P17 and the stop was never made due to gaps between train and platform.

 

[tbtc]

The XC franchise is just about right as it is. Yes, it could extend to lots of other places (some that XC used to serve), but that'd make it even more complicted and prone to go wrong.

As for comments about them getting a route from Town A to Town B so that they could run Voyagers on it, what spare Voyagers are these? Couldn't the current operator invest in bigger/ better trains just as easily?

 

[Waverley125]

I disagree. While there is a market for journeys between local stations, using a long-distance service to serve it is inefficient. the same rationale would be to stop all ECML trains at places like chester le Street, cramlington, Pegswood etc, north of newcastle to serve the demand for journeys.

Stations Norwich-Ely should be served by a regular, hourly, Norwich-Peterborough/Cambridge service, calling all stations (Manea apart, in peterborough's case).

 

[Mojo]

I disagree. While there is a market for journeys between local stations, using a long-distance service to serve it is inefficient. the same rationale would be to stop all ECML trains at places like chester le Street, cramlington, Pegswood etc, north of newcastle to serve the demand for journeys.

That is true, but it is also inefficient to put on new local trains for some journeys as well.

 

[Waverley125]

only in some cases. An hourly peterborough-Norwich stopper using a 156 would standardise the service all stations on the route get, as well as providing another link service. Grantham-Nottingham is another case in point.

Nottingham-Skegness could remain an hourly service, but it really needs to be more.

 

[Bittern]

Do XC run any trains to/from Inverness?

 

[Mojo]

Do XC run any trains to/from Inverness?

No. Aberdeen is furthest north.

 

[tbtc]

While there is a market for journeys between local stations, using a long-distance service to serve it is inefficient

That's it in a nutshell.

XC stop (or stopped) at wee places like Dronfield, Chester le Street, Ladybank etc, partly because there were no local trains (or because the XC service was in the path of a local service, so had to stop at it's stops to compensate).

However, we don't have capacity on all main lines for slow AND fast services, given how quickly a slow service gets caught up, meaning we have the daft compramise of "intercity" services stopping at very "local" stations.

It'd be nice if (operators like) NXEA had the resources to improve their East Anglia services to serve local stations and thereore allow XC to speed up, but that needs a lot of local investment first

 

[LilLoaf]

I disagree. While there is a market for journeys between local stations, using a long-distance service to serve it is inefficient. the same rationale would be to stop all ECML trains at places like chester le Street, cramlington, Pegswood etc, north of newcastle to serve the demand for journeys.

Oh my God, my home station get a mention someone knows where it is. It would be pointless stopping XC and NXEC at Cramlington as there is a local train every hour (more or less) so its fine. Just need a better service after 1900 thats all.

I reckin XC will be stopping at Northallerton before long like.

Stations north of Morpeth need a better service but not a XC, NXEC just a NT.

Just to confirm about the Brighton service. It stopped at Ken Olympia so why stop Clapham. Just hop on a Silverlink service to Clapham.

 

[tbtc]

It would be pointless stopping XC and NXEC at Cramlington as there is a local train every hour (more or less) so its fine

I guess the only reason for XC stopping there would be if they withdrew the hourly Northern DMU to free up a path for more Edinburgh trains (e.g. one Edinburgh service stopping at Cramlington each hour, and one at Morpeth each hour)

 

[SouthEastern-465]

I recently looked at all UK TOCs. The only franchised ones that did not have a bus division as far as I could see were NedRail(Northern +Merseyrail) and Chiltern (DB). I may have missed others, but I'm pretty sure every other company has a bus division somewhere.

So I can only echo 90019's question; if "bus companies" were to leave trains alone, who's going to run them?

thanks for agreeing but there are 2 more SOUTHERN and SouthEastern which are part the go-ahead which are part of the bus companys,but 90019 there are plenty of comapnys to take rail companys other which have no bus relations like DB as mentioned Nedrail as but the goverment could create companys for these like they did in 1923 were they created the big four LNER,GWR,LMS,SOUTHERN

 

[route:oxford]

Bottom line is there is no suitable rolling stock to run any wishful-thinking cross-country services.

Yes, there is the argument that there are one or two suitable rakes of Mk2s left and maybe some serviceable 37/47/57s - but really not enough to deliver a standardised fleet.

So before anyone starts a service, someone is going to have to go out and make a speculative purchase of some trainsets.

Turbostar family, albeit with end doors rather than middle doors...
110Mph capable is probably adequate...
Plenty of luggage space...
DMFL-MFMB-MSL-MS-MSL-MS-DMSL

I'd probably be happy to travel from Perth to Paddington on one of those.

 

[anthony263]

I do remember in Virgin XC days many many many years ago catching a Virgin HST from Bridgend to Newport, I believe it had come from Swansea and I can't honestly remember the destination, but they operated over that route at some stage.

Yes i remember traveling on a virgin hst from Cardiff to Swansea, used to be adn extension of the Newcastle - Bristol service to Swansea which used to operate 2 times daily and was very well used.

at the moment the only crosscountry services to south wales are the hourly Cardiff - Nottingahm and the daily train from Cardiff - Bristol TM -Birmingham - Manchester (This service used to operate to newcastle until this year and its stupid to run it to manchester when there is already an hourly train to manchester, so i think this need to run to newcastle like it used to)

i have read a plan to divert the Milford Haven - Cardiff - Manchester service via the swansea district line with a new station at Morriston and have an hourly service from Swansea - Nottingham which will also service pyle with the swanline also increased to run hourly but will no longer serve pyle giving that service a decrease in journey times by around 5/6 minutes