Extending EMR back to York

[Egg Centric]

I might be misremebering, but I have a vague recollection EMT used to serve York but on a token basis. Then it was cut back to Leeds, also on a token basis. And now nothing.

Is there any possibility of bringing this back? I would certainly use it if it were priced correctly, and I think plenty of other ECML users would too. No doubt it was taken away for a reason, but perhaps those reasons no longer stack up...

 

[Kite159]

Maybe once EMR have all their new trains in service they can look at any potential extensions, but before that happens it will be best kept to running their core routes with the 222s.

 

[ainsworth74]

I might be misremebering, but I have a vague recollection EMT used to serve York but on a token basis. Then it was cut back to Leeds, also on a token basis. And now nothing.

Not quite. EMT/EMR used to have a Saturday (and possibly Sunday actually) service to York that in summer was extended to Scarborough. This was withdrawn a little while ago.

Separately to that they had semi-regular service to Leeds (in that it ran at the start and end of the day) which was a function of some of their HST sets being maintained at Neville Hill depot near Leeds. Once the HSTs left they maintained a token one train per day service using 222s before finally withdrawing the whole thing.

The two services were not connected beyond them serving outside of EMT/EMRs core inter-city route.

 

[Egg Centric]

Separately to that they had semi-regular service to Leeds (in that it ran at the start and end of the day) which was a function of some of their HST sets being maintained at Neville Hill depot near Leeds. Once the HSTs left they maintained a token one train per day service using 222s before finally withdrawing the whole thing.

On the bright side, I guess this means it wasn't withdrawan through lack of demand as such...

 

[Russel]

Never been convinced these token services are a good use of resources...

 

[Topological]

Additional capacity between Sheffield, Leeds and York would be great.

However, it is not obvious that it should be EMR to provide it.

CrossCountry need to be allowed their 80x order. 1 80x for each voyager would give a huge uplift.

EMR dont seem to quite have enough 80x for their own services given the number of planned 5-cars in and out of London.

 

[dk1]

Originally EMT had planned to extend an hourly St.Pancras to Sheffield service hourly to Leeds. In the end the DfT decided it was more cost effective for Northern to operate this new route and hence the Leeds-Nottingham service we see today was born. The York was only a weekend thing which once ran to Scarborough on Saturdays during the summer season. I don’t think we’ll see a return to anything like that again.

 

[Egg Centric]

Never been convinced these token services are a good use of resources...

Ah I just realised my OP was unclear. I don't want a token service, I want an hourly one!

 

[dk1]

Ah I just realised my OP was unclear. I don't want a token service, I want an hourly one!

I think you’ll know what it is to want then

 

[whoosh]

Originally EMT had planned to extend an hourly St.Pancras to Sheffield service hourly to Leeds....

You are right, but it was before EMT, when it was Midland Mainline. There were a small number of 9 car (!) Meridians which were intended for this (but they ended up being reformed to shorter trains with the removed cars used to extend the 4 car ones under EMT).

York was Saturdays and Sundays only, with the Saturday one extended to Scarborough in the summer. This sometimes had Midland Mainline rail staff making the most of a day off with a free trip to the seaside!

Whilst there were two main ways of getting to Leeds (via Moorthorpe and via Doncaster) there were a good many other diversionary routes. Some Driver's route knowledge was quite vast - via Wakefield Kirkgate was one of them, and Hambleton Junction and Micklefield to Neville Hill from the east was another. Not all the trains to Neville Hill ran in service, there were some ECS moves at night (which explains the diversionary routes).

 

[dk1]

You are right, but it was before EMT. When it was Midland Mainline. There were a small number of 9 car (!) Meridians which were intended for this (but they ended up being reformed to shorter trains with the removed cars used to extend the 4 car ones under EMT).

Gosh time flies. Could've sworn it wasn’t before 2007. Cheers. And I see it was the SRA then still rather than the DfT

 

[Egg Centric]

I think you’ll know what it is to want then

Won't be the first or last time!

 

[Topological]

Given York is connected to Derby, the only extra journeys from EMR are Loughborough (probably would not stop there) and Leicester.

Unless people want to see more Purple trains in Leeds and York?

 

[yorksrob]

On the bright side, I guess this means it wasn't withdrawan through lack of demand as such...

The Leeds HST service was quite handy - generally two out and two back.

 

[whoosh]

Gosh time flies. Could've sworn it wasn’t before 2007. Cheers. And I see it was the SRA then still rather than the DfT

The SRA - I'd forgotten about them!

I think Midland Mainline were planning a seamless move of their extended operations during 'Project Rio' (when they ran trains from St Pancras to Manchester whilst the West Coast Main Line was upgraded) to the Sheffield service being extended through to Leeds all day.

It didn't happen like that though!

In 2004, Meridians were delivered, but the Leeds service was now not going to run all day. There was talk of the 9 car Meridians being sent off to either Iarnrod Eireann in Ireland, or Northern Irish Railways - for the Belfast to Dublin service - with regauged bogies!

 

[swt_passenger]

CrossCountry need to be allowed their 80x order.

What 80x order? Do you mean the hypothetical order forum posters regularly wish for, that is unknown to the TOC or DfT?

 

[Topological]

What 80x order? Do you mean the hypothetical order forum posters regularly wish for, that is unknown to the TOC or DfT?

Fully hypothetical and not going to happen. However, they are the only operator of "Intercity" services without either an 80x order or a different new train (if Norwich to London is Intercity). Even all of the open access operators have 80x now.

 

[dk1]

The SRA - I'd forgotten about them!

I got a the easiest Rest Day Worked ever out of the SRA. They financed the four 2-car 170s for Anglia Railways new Norwich to Cambridge service in 2002. To mark the arrival of the first unit Richard Bowker was entertained with a buffet lunch onboard one by the catering department and directors. It was not allowed without a driver specially booked as a key had to be inserted for onboard power. They even wanted a short ride from the Royal Dock siding to the signal and back but I sought guidance as passengers are not to be conveyed in sidings unless special permission is granted and all hand points clipped. Also as drivers didn’t do doors a conductor would need to be provided. They gave up on requesting me to do anything other than set up the onboard display screens and even that was no good as the new route hadnt yet been downloaded into the system by the IT dept

 

[DDB]

My experience of the Scarborough trains was it did seem like a staff day out. The guard and driver seemed to recognise half the passengers as colleagues. Not sure how it did getting paying customers!

 

[Halifaxlad]

Didn't Greengauge21 suggest extending an EMR service to Bradford not so long ago ?

I remember reading about something connecting the Asian communities of Bradford & Leicester.

 

[Egg Centric]

Given York is connected to Derby, the only extra journeys from EMR are Loughborough (probably would not stop there) and Leicester.

Unless people want to see more Purple trains in Leeds and York?

It would be a direct train, better first class (probably), with better pricing (more than probably), and less overcrowding (very likely indeed).

 

[dk1]

Didn't Greengauge21 suggest extending an EMR service to Bradford not so long ago ?

I remember reading about something connecting the Asian communities of Bradford & Leicester.

I thought that was the Nottingham Northern service.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The Leeds HST service was quite handy - generally two out and two back.

… if you were starting from and returning to Leeds towards the ends of the day.

Little use from The South!

 

[Spartacus]

The EMRs to York & Scarborough always looked very quiet to me, probably had more business between York and Scarborough than Sheffield & York. The Leeds service was always quite reasonably loaded for what was in effect an ECS in service because everything to have it in service was there already, and at a pretty unsociable time, and West Yorkshire's connections to many parts of the East Midlands are pretty poor though, the Northern isn't much of a substitute for a quick service. Leeds to Nottingham is marginally quicker via Derby and almost as quick via Newark or Grantham as going direct.

I think the main thing stopping the Leeds regular service was a lack of paths around Leeds, and the Northern can conveniently go into 17 with another on top.

 

[yorksrob]

… if you were starting from and returning to Leeds towards the ends of the day.

Little use from The South!

Well, I haven't lived down that way since the turn of the century.

I do sympathise with Northbound travellers for missing out on the flagship service though.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I used the York-Scarborough extension whenever I went to Scarborough, I was always the only person onboard. I recall that it left Scarborough quite early (sometime after 1pm) so it was never popular until it would reach Sheffield (sometime around 3pm I'd imagine) as leisure travelers would want a later return. I always ended up catching a TPE service back to York because of this early return.

The York-Leicester connection was very handy, and one I used quite a bit over 10 years ago. I can imagine that it would be a popular service, especially if it stopped at East Midlands Parkway and Luton Airport Parkway.

 

[Helvellyn]

Was probably a hope that they could replicate some of the loadings of the Skegness extras by tapping into another East Coast resort. No Butlins though in Scarborough.

Might have worked better as Leeds-Scarborough-St Pancras in the morning and another service running St Pancras-Scarborough-Leeds for a mid/late afternoon arrival into Scarborough. (Start/finish at Leeds to then be ECS from/to Neville Hill).

 

[mike57]

Was probably a hope that they could replicate some of the loadings of the Skegness extras by tapping into another East Coast resort. No Butlins though in Scarborough.

As others have said the Scarborough arrival was fairly late and the departure was fairly early, just after lunch. This would rule it out for the day trippers, although weekly visitors from the East Midlands might have used it to avoid a change(s).

Also remember that there is a through Scarborough - Sheffield service every hour via Hull and Doncaster. It takes about 20-30 minutes longer than the route via York, but is quite a bit cheaper and direct which makes it attractive to those with luggage and/or children. Its a 3 car 170 so is reasonably comfortable (better IMO than either Voyagers or Azumas!!).

Back in BR days there was a summer Saturday through service from the East Midlands to Scarborough, which was routed via the Yorkshire coast line calling at Bridlington, but missed Hull out. I think this ran in various forms until the 1980s

The majority of XC services are now routed via Leeds and Wakefield, which gives a roughly hourly service from York. The downside for passengers from York and points north is that going via Leeds adds about 20 minutes to the York Sheffield leg of the journey as opposed to the direct route via Doncaster.

The XC service is pretty dire, overcrowded, and expensive. If EMR extended via Doncaster to York then the 20 minute saving coupled with a more comfortable journey would be attractive, but I doubt the number of passengers would justify it, although it might relieve XC a bit.

 

[43074]

As others have said the Scarborough arrival was fairly late and the departure was fairly early, just after lunch. This would rule it out for the day trippers, although weekly visitors from the East Midlands might have used it to avoid a change(s).

The northbound train arrived in York at 10:20 IIRC, and Scarborough just after 11:00.

Southbound the EMR service departed Scarborough at 17:07 (York 17:50) and was an extension of the 19:00 Sheffield to London, so was fairly well timed for a day in York or Scarborough.

Was quite a popular train from Leicester/Loughborough etc whenever I used it.

 

[whoosh]

Yes I remember the departure from Scarborough as being after 4 or 5pm. Not just after lunch at all.