Extend the Nottingham Express Transit to Leicester via the GCR?

[nyx6637]

Something I have often wondered if anyone knows.

Has the possibility ever been discussed of extending the Nottingham tramway to let it use the Great Central Railway as a tram-train system for its whole length and then extended from the other end from Leicester North along the streets into the centre of Leicester?

Whilst I doubt the route would be used much for end-to-end central Nottingham to central Leicester journeys for reasons of being fairly slow, it could serve residents of the places en route (Quorn, Rothley, Ruddington, East Leake, etc) well without having to build as much new infrastructure. And for the Great Central Railway, allowing the trams to use their tracks could bring in more revenue if they need it.

Maybe there is a reason this wouldn't really work in practice- I'm just curious as I've never seen the idea discussed before.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

It's an interesting idea, but I doubt GCR would be owning the line by the end of that as they would have to have the capital to fund the new stations, requisite modifications to permanent way, some form of signalling system and of course the 750V DC OLE. The only cash they would see would be selling off the line for NET to carry that out and then entirely shutting down. The alternative is NET (or specifically a construction/engineering consortium) re-building the line and then selling it back to GCR for GCR to then charge access rights which I can't see being palatable for the Tramway ownership or possible for GCR to be able to buy such a product.

But in any case, it'd be quite expensive to build and especially maintain railway systems to be able to safely and adequately support both light rail and steam engines with rakes of carriages.

 

[The Pelican]

Yes, it's vaguely possible in theory- a lot of work has gone into looking at running Manchester Metrolink tram-trains (yet to be ordered) on the Southern part of the East Lancashire Railway, to allow a Rochdale-Bury service. Even more speculatively, tram trains might run north of Bury on the East Lancashire railway. Manchester Metrolink trams have the adavantage of being designed to stop at standard high floor rail platforms. Still, I think the most likely, cheapest thing is to double both railways, with the heritage railway getting one track and the tram trains the other!

 

[59CosG95]

Something I have often wondered if anyone knows.

Has the possibility ever been discussed of extending the Nottingham tramway to let it use the Great Central Railway as a tram-train system for its whole length and then extended from the other end from Leicester North along the streets into the centre of Leicester?

Whilst I doubt the route would be used much for end-to-end central Nottingham to central Leicester journeys for reasons of being fairly slow, it could serve residents of the places en route (Quorn, Rothley, Ruddington, East Leake, etc) well without having to build as much new infrastructure. And for the Great Central Railway, allowing the trams to use their tracks could bring in more revenue if they need it.

Maybe there is a reason this wouldn't really work in practice- I'm just curious as I've never seen the idea discussed before.

Truth be told, the trams do use some of the old GCR alignment already - the stretch of the Clifton South branch from Wilford Lane to Ruddington Lane runs on that rooute.

 

[edwin_m]

Truth be told, the trams do use some of the old GCR alignment already - the stretch of the Clifton South branch from Wilford Lane to Ruddington Lane runs on that rooute.

And between Queens Road and Weekday Cross. About the only former railway structure is the arches just north of Midland station.

 

[InTheEastMids]

In case you missed it, NET is looking at expansion (BBC News link)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp94m32vm

The focus is extension from Clifton P&R into the urban extension along the A453 (The developers have made provision for this in their plan). I do recall at one point there was the idea that it would to EM Parkway, and with Ratcliffe being redeveloped, perhaps that will happen one day.

The other two options are Gedling, or from Toton Lane into Chetwynd Barracks. At one point the plan was to extend to the new HS2 station at Toton. Whatever happened to HS2?

I guess you could extend from Ruddington Lane (13 mins from Nottingham Station), down the GC alignment as far as Ruddington, ~2km perrhaps another 2-3 mins? I guess it's plain line across open country so might not be that expensive, but it'd create pressure to infill between Clifton and Ruddington to generate ridership and S106 contributions, but I'm not sure the road network is up to the wider impact of development there?

Beyond that, not only are you needing to take over or share the preserved railway, and others will know more about the technical feasibility. The economic challenge is that the only place of any size is then East Leake, and beyond that Loughborough (which already has good links to the city by train). It seems like a lot of work to primarily benefit the folk of East Leake? Or the idea would be to build thousands of homes, but again road transport is the issue.

As an aside, on the other side of Nottingham, I was once told the idea was to extend the tram up to Sherwood Park in Annesley. It would certainly explain the ludicrous lack of car parking there (pre-pandemic at least). This would presumably have gone up the GCR alignment to somewhere around Newstead.

 

[ChrisC]

As an aside, on the other side of Nottingham, I was once told the idea was to extend the tram up to Sherwood Park in Annesley. It would certainly explain the ludicrous lack of car parking there (pre-pandemic at least). This would presumably have gone up the GCR alignment to somewhere around Newstead.

I’ve never seen or heard anything about any plans to extend the tram as far as Sherwood Park. It would be quite difficult to find a route between Newstead and Sherwood Park because there is quite a hilly wooded area in the way. The road between Newstead and Annesley runs through a narrow steep sided gap in the hills which is known locally as Annesley Cutting.

There have been plans in the past, which I have seen, to extend it north from Hucknall to the new 1,000 home Top Wighay development where the new Nottinghamshire County Council Offices are now situated. When new houses were built next to the Robin Hood Line, north of Hucknall towards Linby, the houses were built well back from the railway leaving a space for the tram to run alongside the railway. This can be clearly seen north of Hucknall at the Linby Road railway crossing. This tram extension to Top Wighay now seems to have been forgotten although it does sometimes still get a mention when neighbourhood plans for the area are discussed. In 2016 the road bridge at the north end of Hucknall station was rebuilt and the arch through which the tram would have run was complete filled in as the bridge was strengthened.

 

[duffield]

It's an interesting idea, but I doubt GCR would be owning the line by the end of that as they would have to have the capital to fund the new stations, requisite modifications to permanent way, some form of signalling system and of course the 750V DC OLE.

Not saying that this idea is otherwise in any way viable but OHLE isn't necessarily an obstacle given the existence of battery/OHLE trams, as used for example in Birmingham to avoid OHLE in sensitive areas of the city centre.

However I don't see the case for ruining a major (and in some ways unique) heritage asset for a tram system to run over a route not really suitable for trams due to factors like the sparse population along much of the route. For example, between Ruddington and Loughborough only East Leake seems worth a tram stop, and between the outskirts of Loughborough and those of Leicester only the two existing GCR stations seem to serve any populations - and the line skirts the extreme edge of both Quorn and Rothley in those two cases.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Not saying that this idea is otherwise in any way viable but OHLE isn't necessarily an obstacle given the existence of battery/OHLE trams, as used for example in Birmingham to avoid OHLE in sensitive areas of the city centre.

I didn't mean to suggest OLE would be difficult to install on that line, just that it's not really in GCR's budget or institutional knowledge to install such a thing. At such a low voltage and low speed (80km/h), the clearances required are unlikely to be an issue even through historic overbridges. (Speed is relevant because a pantograph slightly raises the contact line as it passes under. Also I'd reckon low floor trams are a lot shorter than mainline stock so the overhead line could get extra low; but that is an issue if you still need to allow conventional trains through as will be the rub again and again with all the rail systems in this scenario. Even if you went for a discontinuous system for this line, you'll need to install more power supplies which would equal a lot of the savings from OLE structures. It's only through a city centre environment that tramway OLE actually becomes expensive and it's mostly because of historic building negotiation and complaints rather than technical aspects.

 

[Mr. SW]

There is planning and construction and stuff going on south of Rothley adjacent to the GSR in Birstall.

Broadnook Garden Village

If you're seeking to be part of a thriving new community, discover Broadnook and find your ideal place to live.

broadnook.co.uk

Imagine a modern, purpose-built community that feels like a village bedded into the land for centuries.
We believe that a great place to live is more than a great home. Parks, shops, sports facilities and places to enjoy your free time are all on your doorstep at Broadnook.

This is just to the north east of Leicester North Station (a bit)
But the justification of extending any sort of tram-train even as far as Luff is manifestly feeble.

> Note that the logo for Broadnook is a double sausage. Hmm...

 

[Aethonatic]

> Note that the logo for Broadnook is a double sausage. Hmm...

The same "double sausage" design is also used for the street signs within the village. Like you've said, Broadnook is adjacent to the Great Central Railway which explains this design choice.

 

[Mr. SW]

Rothley adjacent to the GSR in Birstall.

GCR Oops

 

[osmarks]

I didn't mean to suggest OLE would be difficult to install on that line, just that it's not really in GCR's budget or institutional knowledge to install such a thing.

GCR as in the former Great Central Railway, not the modern and unrelated Grand Central train operating company.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

GCR as in the former Great Central Railway, not the modern and unrelated Grand Central train operating company.

yeah I know I was talking about the heritage line through Loughborough. Mainly because the original prompt had the detail "and then the GCR could charge access rights to tram while still running their trains over it". And I was making the point that it's kinda infeasible to expect the GCR to have the funds or the competency to rebuild their route as a tram-train line. As far as I'm concerned, the only way GCR (the existing heritage railway company) would be owning the line by the end of this conversion is if they carried it out themselves.