Extend East Croydon terminators to Gatwick?

[Sad Sprinter]

Ok, it’s probably not going to work, but since it’s too difficult to add more suburban trains through East Croydon, how about extending the current Watford and London Bridge services through to Gatwick? It’ll provide a direct connection to the airport from South London who otherwise, have to rely on some awkward and quite frankly unreasonable interchanges to get to East Croydon for onward connections. Might take longer than changing for a fast train but it’ll be a hell of a lot easier with luggage.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Ok, it’s probably not going to work, but since it’s too difficult to add more suburban trains through East Croydon, how about extending the current Watford and London Bridge services through to Gatwick? It’ll provide a direct connection to the airport from South London who otherwise, have to rely on some awkward and quite frankly unreasonable interchanges to get to East Croydon for onward connections. Might take longer than changing for a fast train but it’ll be a hell of a lot easier with luggage.

Didn't the Watford Junction to East Croydon services used to run Gatwick Airport to Rugby or Crewe? I do like the idea however capacity might be an issue at Gatwick unless you add an extra platform for the GWR services.

 

[stadler]

Didn't the Watford Junction to East Croydon services used to run Gatwick Airport to Rugby or Crewe? I do like the idea however capacity might be an issue at Gatwick unless you add an extra platform for the GWR services.

It used to run as an hourly Brighton to Rugby service originally.

 

[cle]

It was switched to a local service to avoid big crossing moves, but also knowing that regular demand from eg Balham or Streatham to Shepherds Bush is far more than X to Gatwick or Brighton... and it performs far better as a London orbital service. An even 2tph would be ideal.

As for extending East/South Croydon terminators, if it was doable with the stock and pathing - sure. More local trains running through Croydon is better than turning things there ideally. Getting to Gatwick might be trickier but it does have more platform capacity by that point, you'd want to go via Coulsdon South though. The Oxted route, Cat/Tat or Reigate (4 car only?) - are options too.

 

[brad465]

It was switched to a local service to avoid big crossing moves, but also knowing that regular demand from eg Balham or Streatham to Shepherds Bush is far more than X to Gatwick or Brighton... and it performs far better as a London orbital service. An even 2tph would be ideal.

As for extending East/South Croydon terminators, if it was doable with the stock and pathing - sure. More local trains running through Croydon is better than turning things there ideally. Getting to Gatwick might be trickier but it does have more platform capacity by that point, you'd want to go via Coulsdon South though. The Oxted route, Cat/Tat or Reigate (4 car only?) - are options too.

As there are 3tph that terminate at East Croydon, maybe 1tph to each of 3 different directions? 1tph to Caterham, 1tph to Tattenham Corner (giving both branches 3tph overall), then 1tph to either Gatwick via Redhill or East Grinstead.

 

[PGAT]

As there are 3tph that terminate at East Croydon, maybe 1tph to each of 3 different directions? 1tph to Caterham, 1tph to Tattenham Corner (giving both branches 3tph overall), then 1tph to either Gatwick via Redhill or East Grinstead.

The 2tph from London Bridge used to terminate at Caterham until September 2022. I don't like the idea of having 1tph service patterns on metro services as it just makes the service generally unusable. I would prefer to make the current Watford service 2tph and then extend to Gatwick using the path spaces freed up by the Coulsdon Town terminators which now no longer exist. Whether or not GTR have the rolling stock to achieve any of this is a completely different kettle of fish

 

[JonathanH]

The 2tph from London Bridge used to terminate at Caterham until September 2022

...and generally run fairly empty south of East Croydon. Terminating in platform 5 at East Croydon is a much better solution.

One issue at present is in the morning peak many of the London Bridge via Tulse Hill services terminate at Selhurst rather than running through to East Croydon, with the link maintained by services from Victoria / West London Line. This is a little unfortunate, but I guess more connections from South London is what the abandoned Windmill Bridge work might eventually have enabled.

Generally, in my view, pushing more trains south of East Croydon is not a good idea given the slow speeds across the junction at South Croydon, and the general congestion on the slow line through Purley.

 

[A S Leib]

When Cambridge and Peterborough to Brighton and Horsham services were introduced, was it a one-for-one replacement with Southern services or is there less capacity between East Croydon and Gatwick than before Thameslink reached the ECML?

(Diverging slightly, but I'd guess that you'd build the Quarry Line all the way from East Croydon to Gatwick if starting from scratch, but that changing it now would be extortionately expensive.)

 

[PGAT]

...and generally run fairly empty south of East Croydon. Terminating in platform 5 at East Croydon is a much better solution.

One issue at present is in the morning peak many of the London Bridge via Tulse Hill services terminate at Selhurst rather than running through to East Croydon, with the link maintained by services from Victoria / West London Line. This is a little unfortunate, but I guess more connections from South London is what the abandoned Windmill Bridge work might eventually have enabled.

Generally, in my view, pushing more trains south of East Croydon is not a good idea given the slow speeds across the junction at South Croydon, and the general congestion on the slow line through Purley.

Terminating in Platform 5 is a better solution from the perspective of saving a few quid, but having one of those reliefs blocked while a train is turning around is an operational headache and is more prone to disruption. It's not just the ex-Caterham services, but also the Victoria via Norbury departures provided in the morning to plug a gap between East Croydon and Selhurst: they pretty much never depart on time and as a result cascade delays to anything entering the Selhurst Triangle. Running on the slow lines through Purley is not the end of the world imo, the line is not as busy as it used to be and the 20mph speed limit at South Croydon can be avoided by crossing over just before the station

 

[JonathanH]

(Diverging slightly, but I'd guess that you'd build the Quarry Line all the way from East Croydon to Gatwick if starting from scratch, but that changing it now would be extortionately expensive.)

That is basically what happens for most of the day. The only crossing moves at Stoats Nest Junction are the northbound Horsham to Peterborough trains that don't fit on the slow lines. Everything south from East Croydon on the fast lines goes to the Quarry Line.

When Cambridge and Peterborough to Brighton and Horsham services were introduced, was it a one-for-one replacement with Southern services or is there less capacity between East Croydon and Gatwick than before Thameslink reached the ECML?

There was a full recast but essentially Brighton had long had four Thameslink services and Horsham to Peterborough took the place of a Southern service which terminated at London Bridge.

Terminating in Platform 5 is a better solution from the perspective of saving a few quid, but having one of those reliefs blocked while a train is turning around is an operational headache and is more prone to disruption. It's not just the ex-Caterham services, but also the Victoria via Norbury departures provided in the morning to plug a gap between East Croydon and Selhurst: they pretty much never depart on time and as a result cascade delays to anything entering the Selhurst Triangle.

The slow lines at East Croydon include loads of compromises. The reason the northbound trains from platform 5 at xx10 / xx40 leave late generally traces back to the Reigate / Gatwick train departing late from Redhill after the join and losing further time heading north to Croydon. The Bedford Thameslink and Uckfield to London Bridge services then have to slot through before the xx10/xx40 can go. All very tedious on that side of the station in the morning peak.

The last thing it needs is more trains from Gatwick to thread through. The original poster doesnt indicate whether they would stop south of East Croydon, but they would no doubt just add to the congestion.

 

[PGAT]

When Cambridge and Peterborough to Brighton and Horsham services were introduced, was it a one-for-one replacement with Southern services or is there less capacity between East Croydon and Gatwick than before Thameslink reached the ECML?

(Diverging slightly, but I'd guess that you'd build the Quarry Line all the way from East Croydon to Gatwick if starting from scratch, but that changing it now would be extortionately expensive.)

More or less the same number of trains but obviously the 12car 700s have massively increased capacity. Definitely not a one-for-one replacement the Horsham trains no longer stop at Purley, Earlswood or Salfords (now covered by the Three Bridges service which had no equivalent beforehand). 2tph go to Reigate instead of 1 bearing off to Tonbridge and they now go to Victoria instead, and the Portsmouth trains now go fast to Gatwick

 

[Sad Sprinter]

With Gatwick expansion windmill bridge absolutely needs to happen

 

[JonathanH]

With Gatwick expansion windmill bridge absolutely needs to happen

There doesn't appear to be any funding likely to be made available for it to happen though in the short or medium term. I'd imagine that making a financial case for it will be very difficult. The weekday peak trains through East Croydon are simply not as busy, nor in many cases as long, as they used to be. It will be interesting to see if a drastically scaled back plan emerges in time.

 

[MotCO]

If the trains were extended beyond East Croydon, could they turn off at Redhill for Tonbridge via Godstone?

 

[JonathanH]

If the trains were extended beyond East Croydon, could they turn off at Redhill for Tonbridge via Godstone?

It is very difficult to see what possible demand there is for journeys from suburban stations in South London to that line. It is too far to just be a more convenient reversal.

The challenge is that the Redhill to Tonbridge line barely supports the use of two three car units, while longer trains are needed for the suburban routes that terminate at East Croyfon so the additional rolling stock needed for the extension would be far better used strengthening other routes.

 

[MotCO]

It is very difficult to see what possible demand there is for journeys from suburban stations in South London to that line. It is too far to just be a more convenient reversal.

The challenge is that the Redhill to Tonbridge line barely supports the use of two three car units, while longer trains are needed for the suburban routes that terminate at East Croyfon so the additional rolling stock needed for the extension would be far better used strengthening other routes.

But is it chicken and egg? The fact that the Tonbridge to Redhill line only goes east - west, when there could be demand for intermediate stations to go north to London. Because the line is not there, there is no demand; if the line was there, would the demand grow?

 

[JonathanH]

But is it chicken and egg? The fact that the Tonbridge to Redhill line only goes east - west, when there could be demand for intermediate stations to go north to London. Because the line is not there, there is no demand; if the line was there, would the demand grow?

I don't think that linking the Redhill to Tonbridge line to all stations services within Greater London is the means to grow custom though. Fast to Victoria calling at East Croydon and Clapham Junction might do it, and provide Redhill with a 'fast' to Victoria, but that was what was discontinued in 2018 in the face of insufficient demand, and an observation that running half hourly to Reigate was a better use of resources.

It doesnt address the objective in the original post that 'local' trains should run to Gatwick because connections at East Croydon are seen as poor, and Gatwick is a demand generator.

 

[MotCO]

I don't think that linking the Redhill to Tonbridge line to all stations services within Greater London is the means to grow custom though.

Maybe not. It would just be more convenient for me

 

[Minstral25]

More or less the same number of trains but obviously the 12car 700s have massively increased capacity. Definitely not a one-for-one replacement the Horsham trains no longer stop at Purley, Earlswood or Salfords (now covered by the Three Bridges service which had no equivalent beforehand). 2tph go to Reigate instead of 1 bearing off to Tonbridge and they now go to Victoria instead, and the Portsmouth trains now go fast to Gatwick

Prior to 2018 the service through Redhill was off-peak 4 trains per hour from London Bridge, comprised of 2 all stations to Horsham, 1 to Tonbridge, 1 to Reigate. The Arun Valley trains called off peak on their way to Victoria. At Peaks the Arun Valley trains went fast East Croydon to Gatwick, and the Redhill route got two trains from each of Victoria and London Bridge.

From 2015 to 2018 - the route had two trains withdrawn to accommodate London bridge Rebuilding. The Reigate and Tonbridge services were temporarily redirected to Victoria as fast trains (so Arun Valley could run fast on the Quarry) and London Bridge reduced to 2 services per hour to Horsham. This was a temporary solution for the rebuild not a permanent change in trains.

Redhill has had the increase in capacity with 700's, but had the same service level before and after - although a lot of messing around with London Bridge, Victoria and calling patterns.

 

[JonathanH]

From 2015 to 2018 - the route had two trains withdrawn to accommodate London bridge Rebuilding. The Reigate and Tonbridge services were temporarily redirected to Victoria as fast trains (so Arun Valley could run fast on the Quarry) and London Bridge reduced to 2 services per hour to Horsham. This was a temporary solution for the rebuild not a permanent change in trains.

Also, the 6tph during this period was maintained by the Bedford to Three Bridges services via 'the Hills', while Thameslink to Brighton was 2tph to London Bridge terminal platforms and 2tph to Bedford.

 

[BerkshireRails]

The challenge is that the Redhill to Tonbridge line barely supports the use of two three car units, while longer trains are needed for the suburban routes that terminate at East Croyfon so the additional rolling stock needed for the extension would be far better used strengthening other routes.

The plan is to extend the Tonebridge services to Gatwick Airport in an attempt to increase ridership.

 

[Minstral25]

The plan is to extend the Tonebridge services to Gatwick Airport in an attempt to increase ridership.

The disruption of crossing the southern throat at Redhill twice makes that fairly unworkable whilst ensuring Thameslink services remain on time.

Unless you rebuild that part with either an avoiding track or a better approach, both of which are unlikely to have a positive BCR (Benefit Costs ratio).

 

[JonathanH]

The plan is to extend the Tonebridge services to Gatwick Airport in an attempt to increase ridership.

There is no 'plan' to do that, it is no more than a stakeholder aspiration.

 

[BerkshireRails]

There is no 'plan' to do that, it is no more than a stakeholder aspiration.

It is part of Network Rails Long Term Plan.

 

[JonathanH]

It is part of Network Rails Long Term Plan.

I think that is a misinterpretation of Network Rail's report, published in early 2024 - https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo...k Rail Connectivity Strategic Advice 2024.pdf

Progressing the services is therefore contingent on the following specific matters being assessed and resolved:
• Operational considerations (e.g. timetabling, staffing and rolling stock allocation);
• Costs (particularly for staff which could vary from the figures stated in the report); and
• Potential performance/reliability risks, particularly at/around Redhill and Gatwick on the Brighton Main Line.
However, assessment of the above is best completed by operators who have ready access to the information necessary to complete the assessment robustly and accurately.

It notes a strategic case for extending services to Gatwick, but recognises that such a service presents certain challenges, including a lack of funding, and pathing at peak times.

Network Rail's role is only to determine if such service could run. It will be for the operational side of GBR, and whoever might provide a source of funding, to decide whether it is part of an actual long-term plan for the railway.

Extending East Croydon terminators to Gatwick, as envisaged in the first post in this thread, would be an obvious hindrance to any plans for Tonbridge line services to run to Gatwick.