Express Sprinters and 90mph running

[Dieseldriver]

All of SWT 158/159 fleet are 90mph maximum permissible speed.

 

[elarchibaldo]

What services are diagrammed to take advantage of the Class 158s 90mph maximum running speed? I know they're capable of it, but I know that many of them end up being restricted to 75mph, because they're either coupled to a Sprinter, or diagrammed on routes that are timed for Sprinters.

I imagine the SWT fleet of 158s and 159s makes it up to speed in places, but I'm not sure where else it happens.

The linespeed inbetween Trafford Park East Jnt and Padgate, and just after Warrington Cntl to Hunts Cross. This has a linespeed of 85, but I don't think it's uncommon for drivers to hit 90mph

 

[Lrd]

The linespeed inbetween Trafford Park East Jnt and Padgate, and just after Warrington Cntl to Hunts Cross. This has a linespeed of 85, but I don't think it's uncommon for drivers to hit 90mph

If the linespeed is 85 then the drivers will be doing 85 wherever possible.

 

[elarchibaldo]

If the linespeed is 85 then the drivers will be doing 85 wherever possible.

yes, but a few do go over

 

[Kneedown]

yes, but a few do go over

It wouldn't be in their interests to do so if they are due for a random OTMR download. exceeding the permissible speed by 3mph or more for any sustained period of time would result in an action plan or disciplinary action. Any operating incident would also normally trigger a download.
Best not to speed really. Long gone are the days of pushing it a bit to get some time back.

 

[TGV]

SWT 159s are booked and fully capable of doing 100mph in between Basingstoke and Surbiton.

See attached image.

No further questions your honour...

 

[notadriver]

What app / program was this please?

 

[W230]

What app / program was this please?

It's the OTMR download. No idea what program they use though!

 

[notadriver]

It's the OTMR download. No idea what program they use though!

I don't think that's an OTMR download. That's should only be available to driver managers. TGV is a fitter not a driver or driver manager.

 

[ainsworth74]

It looks to me like the data's been put into Excel to generate the graph.

 

[TDK]

See attached image.

No further questions your honour...

Should you be posting a OTMR download on an open forum timed and dated? most 158's use Qtron OTMR I am not sure of the 159's though
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It looks to me like the data's been put into Excel to generate the graph.

That is not as complete download only the speed graph, no braking, AWS, Direction etc. Hoever you can get just the speed up and to be frank why would a fitter be accessing the speed, copying it to jpg and then posting it? The only reason I can think of that this was done especially for the forum.
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yes, but a few do go over

And your source and evidence?
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It wouldn't be in their interests to do so if they are due for a random OTMR download. exceeding the permissible speed by 3mph or more for any sustained period of time would result in an action plan or disciplinary action. Any operating incident would also normally trigger a download.
Best not to speed really. Long gone are the days of pushing it a bit to get some time back.

Untrue with most TOC's it all depends on the amount of speed over, you will not get disciplined for 3mph over. There is a standard for speeding and the standard is governed by the amount the train goes over. Before a driver is "pulled in" the unit needs to go out of service and all parameters on that unit need to be checked.
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Actually, yes they do. Class 159s that run on the west of England have a max speed of 100mph, not including overspeed. This is because they have 400hp engines compared to 350hp on a Class 158. In the cab of a 158 it says 90mph and in the cab of a SWT 159 (which I have been in numerous times) it says 100mph MAX.

You are full of it and do not know what you are talking about

 

[TGV]

I shall put you out of your misery:

It is a GPS trace, not data recorder. Data output to .csv and plotted in excel.

I am not 'fitter' though. I am a chartered railway engineer. I work on TGV rolling stock in a combination of investigations, reliability optimisation and maintenance procedures. Despite this, I am British by birth and also have UK rail experience. That is all I ever intend to say about my personal circumstances or job on a public forum. But it may answer some questions you have.

EDIT: The point in the image being that the 159 was cruising at 90mph, not 100mph.

 

[TDK]

I shall put you out of your misery:

It is a GPS trace, not data recorder. Data output to .csv and plotted in excel.

I am not 'fitter' though. I am a chartered railway engineer. I work on TGV rolling stock in a combination of investigations, reliability optimisation and maintenance procedures. Despite this, I am British by birth and also have UK rail experience. That is all I ever intend to say about my personal circumstances or job on a public forum. But it may answer some questions you have.

EDIT: The point in the image being that the 159 was cruising at 90mph, not 100mph.

Glad you cleared that one up however GPS isn't that reliable when measuring the speed of trains. But you are correct 158/159's are only permitted at 90mph, to add my car has 150mph on the speedo but it would never reach 150mph

 

[BestWestern]

As somebody rather well accustomed to the rear cab of a 158, I would first have to say that they are all plated to 90mph, and secondly have to say that I know of no Driver stupid enough to make even an occasional habit of intentionally speeding. Train Drivers live in constant trepidation of the dreaded random OTMR download, there are very few foolish enough to disregard it, or it's potential to have them out of a job. That said, there will of course be instances where a Driver may drift a little over the stated speed, they are only human after all, but those who may do it deliberately are in a tiny minority.

 

[TGV]

Glad you cleared that one up however GPS isn't that reliable when measuring the speed of trains. But you are correct 158/159's are only permitted at 90mph, to add my car has 150mph on the speedo but it would never reach 150mph

It is more reliable than many think. I have had cause to calibrate GPS to wheelspeed sensors for data acquisition purposes and despite the obvious drop outs that are inevitable, it is surprisingly accurate. It all depends on what chipset is being used as much as anything.

You wouldn't use it for anything other than auxiliary data acquisition but the attached trace is typical of what to expect in terms of accuracy. In other words, it is clear that 90mph (+/- about 2mph) is the cruising speed in question.

EDIT: I agree though, depending on the train, it is often difficult to get a strong lock from the passenger area. And it is never used for any safety critical applications.

 

[Kneedown]

Untrue with most TOC's it all depends on the amount of speed over, you will not get disciplined for 3mph over. There is a standard for speeding and the standard is governed by the amount the train goes over. Before a driver is "pulled in" the unit needs to go out of service and all parameters on that unit need to be checked.

The unit doesn't have to be pulled in to put someone on an action plan. The OTMR is sufficient. For discipline purposes there probably would be more thorough investigations, but i don't recall any speeding instances at my depot going as far as discipline. The potential is there though.
Excess of 3mph or more for sustained periods, ie not corrected quickly you will be pulled in and spoken to without biscuits. Possible action plan if repeat. 5mph or more will result in plan.
I can't really comment on how other TOC's deal with it.
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This is because they have 400hp engines compared to 350hp on a Class 158.

EMT have 4 158's that are 400hp:- 863-866. They are 90mph maximum just the same as their 350hp sisters.
The 50hp difference is nothing at all to do with the maximum speed, but for faster acceleration on gradients.

Before you cast doubt on this, i should inform you that i am fully qualified to drive 158's, and also a qualified Mentor who has trained a fair chunk of Drivers on Sprinters, 158's included.

 

[RobShipway]

The unit doesn't have to be pulled in to put someone on an action plan. The OTMR is sufficient. For discipline purposes there probably would be more thorough investigations, but i don't recall any speeding instances at my depot going as far as discipline. The potential is there though.
Excess of 3mph or more for sustained periods, ie not corrected quickly you will be pulled in and spoken to without biscuits. Possible action plan if repeat. 5mph or more will result in plan.
I can't really comment on how other TOC's deal with it.
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EMT have 4 158's that are 400hp:- 863-866. They are 90mph maximum just the same as their 350hp sisters.
The 50hp difference is nothing at all to do with the maximum speed, but for faster acceleration on gradients.

Before you cast doubt on this, i should inform you that i am fully qualified to drive 158's, and also a qualified Mentor who has trained a fair chunk of Drivers on Sprinters, 158's included.

Could the 158's be re - geared for 100mph maximum speed?

 

[Kneedown]

Could the 158's be re - geared for 100mph maximum speed?

I suppose they could if there was someone rich enough and mad enough.
A 153 could break the land speed record if you strapped a Saturn V rocket to it.
Would it be practical and economically viable? Very doubtful. You need to do a lot more than just re- gear it.

 

[RobShipway]

I suppose they could if there was someone rich enough and mad enough.
A 153 could break the land speed record if you strapped a Saturn V rocket to it.
Would it be practical and economically viable? Very doubtful. You need to do a lot more than just re- gear it.

Okay, point taken.

 

[TDK]

Could the 158's be re - geared for 100mph maximum speed?

158's are geared for 100mph as all units have a 10mph excess however if they were needed to run at 100mph this would then mean they would have to be good for 110mph. The only way of doing this is changing the gearbox and possibly enhancing the brakes as it is normally brake performance that determines the line speed of a unit.

 

[RobShipway]

158's are geared for 100mph as all units have a 10mph excess however if they were needed to run at 100mph this would then mean they would have to be good for 110mph. The only way of doing this is changing the gearbox and possibly enhancing the brakes as it is normally brake performance that determines the line speed of a unit.

Which IO would I would imagine is interesting when it comes to timings when they operate the same routes as the 175's which are geared for 100mph....:?

 

[The Planner]

Depends whether they can attain 100mph though, timings will be based on the linespeed as well as the traction.

 

[TDK]

The unit doesn't have to be pulled in to put someone on an action plan. The OTMR is sufficient.

If I was pulled in for speeding and all they had was the download I would demand that the unit speedo was checked and also the wheel diameters and my union would back me, if you took the discipline on the grounds of a download only more fool you I am afraid to say.
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Which IO would I would imagine is interesting when it comes to timings when they operate the same routes as the 175's which are geared for 100mph....:?

There are not many places a 175 will get to 100mph on the network they serve and to be picky a 175 is geared for 110mph but can only operate in service at 100mph

 

[Donny Dave]

Are you sure? What section is 90mph? The only section that a 90mph speed limit seems likely is approaching Swinton but they'll be slowing for the curve (about 50mph) if turning off for Donny.

Masborough - Swinton is 90/100HST limit. Swinton Jn (towards Doncaster) is 40 mph going from memory.

 

[Kneedown]

If I was pulled in for speeding and all they had was the download I would demand that the unit speedo was checked and also the wheel diameters and my union would back me, if you took the discipline on the grounds of a download only more fool you I am afraid to say.

The quote you used did say the OTMR was sufficient for an action plan. The full text of my post did say that for the purposes of discipline, further investigation would more than likely be carried out.
Unless you were 100% positive you were not speeding i would recommend accepting the action plan. If someone denies an error or misdeed, and costly investigations take place that ultimately dont clear him, then thats when discipline gets severe. Ok, so the union will back you. Doesn't mean they'll win.
The best advice is that which was given to me by an old hand Driver when i was a young Secondman....."If you drop a b****** always hold your hands up. You may get a rollocking but nothing like what you'll get if you get caught trying to lie or cover things up."
Good advice methinks.

 

[D365]

The best advice is that which was given to me by an old hand Driver when i was a young Secondman....."If you drop a b****** always hold your hands up. You may get a rollocking but nothing like what you'll get if you get caught trying to lie or cover things up."
Good advice methinks.

Always good advice no matter what the situation.

 

[TDK]

The quote you used did say the OTMR was sufficient for an action plan.

I didn't say that, someone else did

The full text of my post did say that for the purposes of discipline, further investigation would more than likely be carried out.
Unless you were 100% positive you were not speeding i would recommend accepting the action plan.

Your recommendation is wrong, if I didn't feel I was speeding I would certainly not take anything going on my record without the correct evidence being produced and that would be a speedo check, OTMR speedo check and a wheel diameter check before I signed anything

If someone denies an error or misdeed, and costly investigations take place that ultimately dont clear him, then thats when discipline gets severe. Ok, so the union will back you. Doesn't mean they'll win.
The best advice is that which was given to me by an old hand Driver when i was a young Secondman....."If you drop a b****** always hold your hands up. You may get a rollocking but nothing like what you'll get if you get caught trying to lie or cover things up."
Good advice methinks.

Agreed, if you knew you had made an error, yes, come clean and take the discipline however I was pulled in for speeding/TPWS brake demand and demanded that the speedo and wheel diameters were checked and it was discovered that the speedo was 7mph out and the wrong wheel diameters were inputed into the OTMR so I was not speeding accordong to the train speedometer. If I hadn't requested the info I would have had a speeding offence on my record.

 

[Kneedown]

I didn't say that, someone else did

My apologies.

Your recommendation is wrong, if I didn't feel I was speeding I would certainly not take anything going on my record without the correct evidence being produced and that would be a speedo check, OTMR speedo check and a wheel diameter check before I signed anything.

Agreed, if you knew you had made an error, yes, come clean and take the discipline however I was pulled in for speeding/TPWS brake demand and demanded that the speedo and wheel diameters were checked and it was discovered that the speedo was 7mph out and the wrong wheel diameters were inputed into the OTMR so I was not speeding accordong to the train speedometer. If I hadn't requested the info I would have had a speeding offence on my record.

You were certain you were not speeding, and therefore asked for a more in depth investigation. I was only recommending taking the plan if one was not certain they weren't speeding.
You were sure, you challenged, and were exonerated. It seems to me that it should never have gone that far. It looks like the DM who analysed the download didn't notice that the entire download would register a speed excess of 7mph for the entire journey. For instance if the linespeeds were 15mph, rising to 60 before dropping to 25 then the download would have recorded 22mph rising to 67 dropping to 32mph. The curve on the download graph would be the same shape, but registering 7mph faster. That in itself would imply that there was a fault with either the unit or equipment. If a Driver was speeding by 7mph on the 60mph stretch of line, then the download would correctly register 15mph, rising to 67 before dropping to 25mph. The speed curve would peak more on the faster stretch if you know what i am getting at?
TBH the DM should have spotted this. I did a DM's job, seconded for over a year, and anything that didn't look right on a download i went through with a fine tooth comb, considering all possibilities and also got second and third opinions.
No way was i going to make a decision that could potentially affect someone's career with being 100% sure of my facts.

 

[TDK]

My apologies.





You were certain you were not speeding, and therefore asked for a more in depth investigation. I was only recommending taking the plan if one was not certain they weren't speeding.
You were sure, you challenged, and were exonerated. It seems to me that it should never have gone that far. It looks like the DM who analysed the download didn't notice that the entire download would register a speed excess of 7mph for the entire journey. For instance if the linespeeds were 15mph, rising to 60 before dropping to 25 then the download would have recorded 22mph rising to 67 dropping to 32mph. The curve on the download graph would be the same shape, but registering 7mph faster. That in itself would imply that there was a fault with either the unit or equipment. If a Driver was speeding by 7mph on the 60mph stretch of line, then the download would correctly register 15mph, rising to 67 before dropping to 25mph. The speed curve would peak more on the faster stretch if you know what i am getting at?
TBH the DM should have spotted this. I did a DM's job, seconded for over a year, and anything that didn't look right on a download i went through with a fine tooth comb, considering all possibilities and also got second and third opinions.
No way was i going to make a decision that could potentially affect someone's career with being 100% sure of my facts.

Yes indeed, the speedo in this case was a pecentage so at say 22 it was 20 at 55 it was 50 etc. It was the TPWS activation that prompted the download and the download read I was doing 67mph where the tpws was set at 66mph for an approaching 50mph PSR, in fact the speedo reading at the time was actually 60mph and I knew it was this as I looked when the brake came in so I was certain I was not speeding according to the speedo and this is what prompted me to question the trains speedo reading. This is rare of course and generally the speedo on a train is very accurate. I did a DTM's job for 6 years and so am keyed up on what should and shouldn't be done and what needs to be done and this at the time was a great help to be fair.

Unfortunately but not in my case some DTM's are a bit trigger happy as they say and jump in before looking at all the perameters and ending up with egg on their face.

 

[D1009]

Which IO would I would imagine is interesting when it comes to timings when they operate the same routes as the 175's which are geared for 100mph....:?

Don't forget if you ran for 8 miles at 90 instead of 100 you would only lose half a minute.