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Express Epping service

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Sprigibax

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A few weeks ago I went to Epping from Leyton, and it seemed to take absolutely ages getting there with the Central line. My idea was to have an express service from Epping, calling at Loughton, Woodford, possibly Leytonstone and Leyton, Stratford, and then from Stratford I’m not really sure. I would say terminate it at Liverpool Street but there probably isn’t space there, so maybe Fenchurch Street could be a possibility? Another idea was to have it as a branch of the Elizabeth line, but that would presumably impact other sections of the line. A final idea I had was to run it over the North London line, calling at Hackney Central and Highbury & Islington, where it would run until Caledonian Road and Barnsbury (but not stop) and then split into two branches: one to either King’s Cross or St Pancras (if either have space) and one on to Camden Road, then using Primrose Hill link to South Hampstead, Kilburn High Road and Queen’s Park, then a new link to Old Oak Common when it’s built. The third idea would probably mean the Watford DC line could then be closed and taken over by the Bakerloo.
I’m not sure if any of these ideas are any good, please provide me with more suitable ones if there are any!
 
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Dr Hoo

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How frequent is your journey from Epping to Leyton? Are you aware of a significant number of others making the same journey (e.g. employer relocating, college opening branch campus or whatever)?
At the risk of stating the obvious, a mass transit system such as the Central Line is not geared around occasional journeys by a single individual.
 

SynthD

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An express service takes up multiple paths when mixed with a stopper. The current service is the most efficient use of the resources, especially considering the cheap price for the distance.

Putting that aside, the Elizabeth line needs more trains beyond Maryland, and it's hard to see how that line would not suffer.

Connecting the Overground from Hackney to the Central line platforms would be immensely disruptive. Slightly less so with trying to connect the Overground to the Central from Leyton. All of these would create long lines, more prone to spreading disruption. They also don't unlock housing, which is how most funding is found.
 

Sad Sprinter

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An express service takes up multiple paths when mixed with a stopper. The current service is the most efficient use of the resources, especially considering the cheap price for the distance.

Putting that aside, the Elizabeth line needs more trains beyond Maryland, and it's hard to see how that line would not suffer.

Connecting the Overground from Hackney to the Central line platforms would be immensely disruptive. Slightly less so with trying to connect the Overground to the Central from Leyton. All of these would create long lines, more prone to spreading disruption. They also don't unlock housing, which is how most funding is found.

The Elizabeth Line does need more Sheffield trains, although London Recconections did a piece a few years ago arguing that High Barnet and Epping shouldn’t have been made part of the Underground. I don’t know if they advocated reverting it back to National Rail or whatever but the OP might sympathise
 

JonathanH

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The Elizabeth Line does need more Shenfield trains
I'd imagine that running any extras to Gidea Park would be enough, perhaps even Chadwell Heath?

Whatever the position, Epping isn't the answer. I thought initially the original poster would be supporting four tracing the line from Leyton to Loughton, but seems not.
 

stevieinselby

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The Elizabeth Line does need more Sheffield trains, although London Recconections did a piece a few years ago arguing that High Barnet and Epping shouldn’t have been made part of the Underground. I don’t know if they advocated reverting it back to National Rail or whatever but the OP might sympathise
Is 8tph to Shenfield really not sufficient? Bearing in mind that the Lizzie trains are nearly double the size of most tube trains, and Shenfield (and to a lesser extent Romford) also has fast trains, if the intermediate stations really merit a more frequent service then I find that surprising, but at the same time very positive!

While I can understand that passengers from Epping might find the stopping service feels slow, at 42 minutes to Liverpool Street it's a similar journey time as Brentwood, Caterham and Leatherhead, which are all similar sized towns a similar distance from London but with – in the latter two cases – significantly lower frequencies and no cross-London service ... so it's hard to justify the view that Epping has hard-done-by.
 

D7666

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A few weeks ago I went to Epping from Leyton, and it seemed to take absolutely ages getting there with the Central line. My idea was to have an express service from Epping, calling at Loughton, Woodford, possibly Leytonstone and Leyton, Stratford, and then from Stratford I’m not really sure. I would say terminate it at Liverpool Street but there probably isn’t space there, so maybe Fenchurch Street could be a possibility? Another idea was to have it as a branch of the Elizabeth line, but that would presumably impact other sections of the line. A final idea I had was to run it over the North London line, calling at Hackney Central and Highbury & Islington, where it would run until Caledonian Road and Barnsbury (but not stop) and then split into two branches: one to either King’s Cross or St Pancras (if either have space) and one on to Camden Road, then using Primrose Hill link to South Hampstead, Kilburn High Road and Queen’s Park, then a new link to Old Oak Common when it’s built. The third idea would probably mean the Watford DC line could then be closed and taken over by the Bakerloo.
I’m not sure if any of these ideas are any good, please provide me with more suitable ones if there are any!
Barking

And not the place.
 

30907

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Epping is 13 miles from Leyton (by road) and the journey is scheduled in 24-26min with peak frequency every 6 min.
Your express service might save 5 min, but in order to run it you would have to turn every 3rd train at Loughton.
Using the conventional Generalised Journey Time formula, the average saving is just 1 min from Epping and Loughton, but Theydon Bois and Debden lose 2/3 of their trains.
You would have to spend a great deal of money to get any serious benefit.

(Totally OT: back in the mid 80s, word among mums-to-be in Buckhurst Hill was that a trip on 62 stock to Epping and back would help induce labour - it was certainly a rough ride at speed!)
 

Nottingham59

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I've always thought that North Weald, the station beyond Epping on the old Epping-Ongar section, would have made a perfect site for a Park and Ride for London. An Epping express would make that even more attractive (but not to the the local residents of course.)

But with the Elizabeth Line open, a new station and massive car park where the EL crosses the M25 would be an even better Park and Ride.
 

Farigiraf

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I've always thought that North Weald, the station beyond Epping on the old Epping-Ongar section, would have made a perfect site for a Park and Ride for London. An Epping express would make that even more attractive (but not to the the local residents of course.)
We've seen reclaims from heritage railways in the past (Dartmoor, Lymington) so it's not impossible, although any central line extension in the north east section would probably be to Harlow.
But with the Elizabeth Line open, a new station and massive car park where the EL crosses the M25 would be an even better Park and Ride.
Good idea on paper, until you factor in the sewage works nearby which will undoubtedly put people off!

1719133969245.png
 
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Trainguy34

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I've always thought that North Weald, the station beyond Epping on the old Epping-Ongar section, would have made a perfect site for a Park and Ride for London. An Epping express would make that even more attractive (but not to the the local residents of course.)

But with the Elizabeth Line open, a new station and massive car park where the EL crosses the M25 would be an even better Park and Ride.
I assume you mean around Brentwood out east and not Iver out west ;)
 

Farigiraf

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I assume you mean around Brentwood out east and not Iver out west ;)
If some west curve at the junction to Heathrow is installed that could function as a Heathrow Parkway station but given GWR/TfL are known to co-operate with Heathrow in the public transport sector frequently this would be vetoed.
Edit: Just noticed how close Iver actually is to the M25. Idea would involve more of a rebranding of Iver station then. Also...
Ah, well that's unfortunate (image is from Google Maps at Hayes/Drayton/Heathrow junction)
.1719134481876.png
 

bramling

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A few weeks ago I went to Epping from Leyton, and it seemed to take absolutely ages getting there with the Central line. My idea was to have an express service from Epping, calling at Loughton, Woodford, possibly Leytonstone and Leyton, Stratford, and then from Stratford I’m not really sure. I would say terminate it at Liverpool Street but there probably isn’t space there, so maybe Fenchurch Street could be a possibility? Another idea was to have it as a branch of the Elizabeth line, but that would presumably impact other sections of the line. A final idea I had was to run it over the North London line, calling at Hackney Central and Highbury & Islington, where it would run until Caledonian Road and Barnsbury (but not stop) and then split into two branches: one to either King’s Cross or St Pancras (if either have space) and one on to Camden Road, then using Primrose Hill link to South Hampstead, Kilburn High Road and Queen’s Park, then a new link to Old Oak Common when it’s built. The third idea would probably mean the Watford DC line could then be closed and taken over by the Bakerloo.
I’m not sure if any of these ideas are any good, please provide me with more suitable ones if there are any!

In principle I kind of agree. The journey inwards is quite torturous, and has become more so over the years as Epping has become something of a railhead for a much wider part of Essex, a role for which it isn’t ideally suited.

However an express service just isn’t viable without building extra tracks, which just isn’t going to happen. Even just to do a peak-flow express service you’d need a third track probably from Loughton to Leytonstone, which in turn would mean rebuilding four stations. To make things work smoothly you’d probably have to introduce grade-separation at Woodford Junction, which would cost a fortune if it’s viable at all.

There’s also the issue that many of the intermediate stations are busy in their own right, the only quieter ones are Theydon Bois and Buckhurst Hill. So realistically an express service would have to be something like Epping-Debden-Loughton-Woodford-Leytonstone. If you wanted to omit Debden and Loughton then there will need to be a decent stopping service from as far back as Epping, which is going to make pathing seriously difficult.

I guess you could do Epping, Theydon Bois, Debden, Loughton, then fast to Leytonstone, if you had a third track, in the peak direction only. That would work from a passenger flow point of view so long as there was a decent enough solution to local journeys. But enormous cost to save a few minutes on a few journeys. And bear in mind that it is going to add zero capacity, as that’s essentially fixed by the central London section.

Inwards of Leytonstone there’s essentially zero prospect of any non-stopping. Leyton is too busy, Stratford and Mile End are complete non-starters, so that just leaves Bethnal Green. And that’s before one considers the infrastructure work necessary.

With the enormous cost, one has to question the benefit. Indeed if you’re going to spend a lot of money, would be more worthwhile to look at splitting off Epping altogether and returning it to national rail?
 
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whoosh

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I think what might be needed, is the Chelsea - Hackney Line!
 

Nottingham59

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Good idea on paper, until you factor in the sewage works nearby which will undoubtedly put people off!
I'd put it on the other side of the M25, where the A1023 already gives direct access to the M25/A13 junction.
With new car parks on both sides of the railway to reduce walking distance to the new station.

And the site could be compulsorily purchased at Agricultural Land value....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I assume you mean around Brentwood out east and not Iver out west ;)
Yes, lol.

On the other side of London, the best site might be on the fields around Kings Langley, where there will be lots of capacity available on the WCML for non-stop trains to Euston when HS2 opens.
 
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