"Exploiting a loophole": what does this mean, and what are the implications

[big all]

about 50 years ago when i was a teenager on a sunday i used to go from edinburgh to glasgow trainspotting
now i dont know how i found it out but you could get there for about half price perfectly legally if not a bit underhand
all you had to do was buy a ticket to carstairs and because there was no direct service edinburgh to carstairs and because it was into queen street and out off central no problems exiting the station

 

[silverfoxcc]

JUst been on trainline fotr this ticket St pancras intl to Straford Intl and all i get is a 6min jpurney for railcard 4.25

Where am i going wrong as i fancied a cheap day out!

 

[Kite159]

about 50 years ago when i was a teenager on a sunday i used to go from edinburgh to glasgow trainspotting
now i dont know how i found it out but you could get there for about half price perfectly legally if not a bit underhand
all you had to do was buy a ticket to carstairs and because there was no direct service edinburgh to carstairs and because it was into queen street and out off central no problems exiting the station

A bit like a couple years ago a ticket from Salisbury to stations on the Ebbw Vale line was cheaper than to Cardiff itself (plus a day return was available), but because the only way to reach Ebbw Vale was via Cardiff and as most of those trains departed from P0 it worked the barriers.

(Sadly these days they are roughly the same price and the only fare available is an Anytime Return)

 

[krus_aragon]

JUst been on trainline fotr this ticket St pancras intl to Straford Intl and all i get is a 6min jpurney for railcard 4.25

Where am i going wrong as i fancied a cheap day out!

A via point was specified for the circuitous route, and even then it only showed on some booking engines.
I suggest that you don't try that journey without giving some thought to what you'd say to staff if challenged.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

JUst been on trainline fotr this ticket St pancras intl to Straford Intl and all i get is a 6min jpurney for railcard 4.25
Where am i going wrong as i fancied a cheap day out!

A via point was specified for the circuitous route, and even then it only showed on some booking engines.
I suggest that you don't try that journey without giving some thought to what you'd say to staff if challenged.

Whilst I agree that you should consider what you would say, I don't think it is anywhere near as controversial to call at Stratford twice if you are following your chosen booking engine's itinerary in doing so. Of course, it is only a few quid more to get a return than a single from St Pancras to Stratford, so if you are concerned about potential hassle the easy solution is simply to buy a return. That way you don't call at your destination twice - instead you are calling at your origin twice, which is not nearly as controversial.

 

[Silverdale]

If there is an equivalent to the Richter scale for measuring potential hassle, I'd like to bet that travelling round the loop on the return portion would only score 0.1 lower than doing so with a single, so I disagree that it would be an "easy solution".

For reasonable hassle avoidance/reduction you would still be relying on the booked itinerary and unless you really want to go round the loop twice, the single ticket provides that.

The key thing to remember is that you can't just wave a generic 'via Ramsgate' itinerary and claim it proves the route is permitted. The loophole... sorry, the reason it appears to be permitted is because you are using a direct service, so you must use the exact service shown on the itinerary. You can't break your journey anywhere round the loop. You can't even alight at a station to admire a nice piece of SECR ironwork and then jump on the following train. Once you elect not to end your journey the first time it calls at Stratford, you have to stay on the booked, direct, service all the way around the loop and back to Stratford.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If there is an equivalent to the Richter scale for measuring potential hassle, I'd like to bet that travelling round the loop on the return portion would only score 0.1 lower than doing so with a single, so I disagree that it would be an "easy solution".

For reasonable hassle avoidance/reduction you would still be relying on the booked itinerary and unless you really want to go round the loop twice, the single ticket provides that.

The key thing to remember is that you can't just wave a generic 'via Ramsgate' itinerary and claim it proves the route is permitted. The loophole... sorry, the reason it appears to be permitted is because you are using a direct service, so you must use the exact service shown on the itinerary. You can't break your journey anywhere round the loop. You can't even alight at a station to admire a nice piece of SECR ironwork and then jump on the following train. Once you elect not to end your journey the first time it calls at Stratford, you have to stay on the booked, direct, service all the way around the loop and back to Stratford.

I would have to disagree at the reduced risk/hassle - getting a return ticket means you cannot be accused of overtravelling, or committing an offence under S103 of the Railway Consolidation Clauses Act 1845. You can only be accused of travelling on an incorrect route, which is a less serious issue.

I also strongly disagree that you cannot break your journey at an intermediate point - as long as you solely travel on direct trains between St Pancras and Stratford. I accept that there are differing views on that. But certainly if you are travelling on an itinerary provided by the booking engine when you bought your ticket, any accusation of being "off route" is entirely ludicrous.

 

[Silverdale]

If only the degree of hassle was related to the particular offence you are suspected of committing.

I presume it has never been tested in court whether travelling by a "direct train service" includes travelling on a series of direct trains. It's quite a strong argument that by including the word service, 13.1.1 means exactly that. Otherwise the wording would be "direct train". So I tend to agree with you on that point.

When I suggested that you can't break your journey, I meant you can't if you are going to rely on the booked itinerary for hassle avoidance/reduction.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If only the degree of hassle was related to the particular offence you are suspected of committing.

I presume it has never been tested in court whether travelling by a "direct train service" includes travelling on a series of direct trains. It's quite a strong argument that by including the word service, 13.1.1 means exactly that. Otherwise the wording would be "direct train". So I tend to agree with you on that point.

When I suggested that you can't break your journey, I meant you can't if you are going to rely on the booked itinerary for hassle avoidance/reduction.

Understood, no hard feelings!

 

[Silverdale]

Actually, I should have written; If only the degree of hassle was related to the offence you think you will be suspected of committing.

 

[some bloke]

The idea that it is forbidden to stay on a train as it leaves the destination on the ticket - even if the agreed itinerary is to travel further then back - may be weakened by the fact that National Rail Enquiries offers routes such as these, not at bargain prices:

Euston-Crewe via Liverpool
Penzance-Plymouth via Exeter
St Pancras-Stratford International via Ebbsfleet.

 

[krus_aragon]

The idea that it is forbidden to stay on a train as it leaves the destination on the ticket - even if the agreed itinerary is to travel further then back - may be weakened by the fact that National Rail Enquiries offers routes such as these, not at bargain prices:

Euston-Crewe via Liverpool
Penzance-Plymouth via Exeter
St Pancras-Stratford International via Ebbsfleet.

Are those routes each offered on a single ticket?

 

[some bloke]

Are those routes each offered on a single ticket?

The main results pages say "single from £...".

Now I see that - as you may have in mind - the "detail" pages say, "You need to buy more than one ticket for this journey".

 

[Silverdale]

NRE is annoying like that.

It's also annoying that if you did e.g want to do the St Pancras-Ebbsfleet-Stratford itinerary, you wouldn't really want to buy the two singles they offer, but a return from St Pancras to Ebbsfleet.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

I also strongly disagree that you cannot break your journey at an intermediate point - as long as you solely travel on direct trains between St Pancras and Stratford. I accept that there are differing views on that. But certainly if you are travelling on an itinerary provided by the booking engine when you bought your ticket, any accusation of being "off route" is entirely ludicrous.

The via Ramsgate is surely only valid because it's *a* direct service, described in some documentation as a "through train", and this is the only way that it can be done... An itinerary with a change would not offer this fare - if any accredited planner did, it would certainly be OK, but one for the TOC to follow-up later.

As for loopholes, I think all these cases are simply the result of the fares rules and data, and morality doesn't need to come into it. IMO, it's as moral to use any fare(s) according to the rules as it is for a TOC to notice what they've done and change the fares to match what they intended.

 

[Silverdale]

The via Ramsgate is surely only valid because it's *a* direct service, described in some documentation as a "through train", and this is the only way that it can be done... An itinerary with a change would not offer this fare - if any accredited planner did, it would certainly be OK, but one for the TOC to follow-up later.

We can't check whether an accredited planner would or wouldn't offer the fare if the itinerary included a change or break of journey, as none of the accredited planners allow 'break' or 'change' points to be set, only 'via' points. Some planners satisfy a 'via' point with itineraries which pass through, some require the train to stop. In either case, if the itinerary includes a direct train between origin and destination, passing through or calling will be sufficient to satisfy the 'via' requirement and as there will never be a need for a change of trains the planner won't create one.

It's because NRCoT says a ticket is valid on "any direct train service" between the stations shown, rather than *a* direct service or *a* through train, that there is a good case to argue that changing or breaking journey is allowed, provided travel is only on through or direct trains between the stations shown.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The via Ramsgate is surely only valid because it's *a* direct service, described in some documentation as a "through train", and this is the only way that it can be done... An itinerary with a change would not offer this fare - if any accredited planner did, it would certainly be OK, but one for the TOC to follow-up later.

As for loopholes, I think all these cases are simply the result of the fares rules and data, and morality doesn't need to come into it. IMO, it's as moral to use any fare(s) according to the rules as it is for a TOC to notice what they've done and change the fares to match what they intended.

The NRCoT do not qualify the "direct train" rule in that way, however. Condition 13.1.1 says that [tickets] are valid on:

any direct train service between the station(s) shown on your Ticket;

The services do not cease to become direct train services between the station(s) shown on your Ticket just because you do not make the journey on one direct train.

If the NRCoT wanted that to be the effect, they should make this clear - e.g. by qualifying 13.1.1 with something like:

"Condition 13.1.1 does not entitle you to break your journey at a point which is only on a permitted route by virtue of you using a direct train service."

That is not currently in effect, so due to that and the significant doubt over what the intention is, S69 of the CRA dictates that the most consumer-favourable interpretation (that BoJ is allowed) prevails.

none of the accredited planners allow 'break' or 'change' points to be set

Is TrainSplit not accredited?!

 

[Silverdale]

Is TrainSplit not accredited?!

I believe it is. And you are right. TrainSplit does allow you to specify an itinerary with a change of trains, but not with the Anytime Day Single £6.40 ticket.

Have you obtained an itinerary from TrainSplit for the via St Pancras to Stratford Intl. via Ramsgate, which allows you to change trains or break journey at Ramsgate (or anywhere else)?

Insert a change (at Ramsgate) to require a change/wait, and even if both connecting services are direct from St Pancras to Stratford Intl., the total fare is e.g. £65.40. (2 x Super Off-Peak Single tickets, St Pancras-Ramsgate and Ramsgate-Stratford). Does TrainSplit fail to implement NRCoT correctly?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I believe it is. And you are right. TrainSplit does allow you to specify an itinerary with a change of trains, but not with the Anytime Day Single £6.40 ticket.

Have you obtained an itinerary from TrainSplit for the via St Pancras to Stratford Intl. via Ramsgate, which allows you to change trains or break journey at Ramsgate (or anywhere else)?

Insert a change (at Ramsgate) to require a change/wait, and even if both connecting services are direct from St Pancras to Stratford Intl., the total fare is e.g. £65.40. (2 x Super Off-Peak Single tickets, St Pancras-Ramsgate and Ramsgate-Stratford). Does TrainSplit fail to implement NRCoT correctly?

Accredited journey planners have to implement the Routeing Guide and the NRCoT in accordance with industry standards. That means that there are some cases where you will not get a journey planner to give you an itinerary despite the itinerary you want following a permitted route.

For example, there are numerous fares for which the mapped routes give LONDON as an option (i.e. travel is permitted via London, usually across it), and yet which do not include the usual marker of cross-London validity, a Maltese cross. The Routeing Guide is clear that in this scenario, a cross-London transfer is permitted in the same way it would be if a Maltese cross did exist. Yet booking engines are not permitted to suggest a cross-London transfer for such tickets (other than a walk for very short transfers, or a make-your-own-way transfer for overnight transfers where the data gives the Underground etc. as being "shut").

This situation is, I imagine, similar. The internal industry accreditation rules and guidelines ban booking engines from offering itineraries that involve a change, if they can only be justified as a permitted route by virtue of the direct trains rule.

So what I am saying is that, whilst TrainSplit et al are compliant with the industry rules and regulations (well, TrainSplit is, but some other providers are not!), that does not mean that an itinerary they are unable to provide is automatically invalid. One must consider the contractual rights granted to the passenger in order to determine the validity of any given itinerary.

I also struggle to see how anyone can say that break of journey (at least in the context of stopping "short") is not permitted for a Southeastern circular STP-SFA itinerary, given that all compliant booking sites will state the break of journey conditions applying to that ticket: namely that break of journey is permitted!

Again, unless that is qualified then I cannot see how anyone can argue that it is not permitted when the passenger is explicitly told about (aka granted) that right when booking. Otherwise the TOC is trying to retrospectively change the conditions on which the ticket was sold, which they cannot do! I suspect it is another case of the NRCoT and ticket conditions needing to be clarified, if the TOCs are not happy with the current legal position.

I can see that the right to resume the journey once broken is somewhat more conscientious, but the right to initially break it is so clearly granted that is strikes me as incongruous that anyone would suggest you cannot do that!

(Of course, I am aware of the practical implications, but I am talking from a legal perspective here )

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Insert a change (at Ramsgate) to require a change/wait, and even if both connecting services are direct from St Pancras to Stratford Intl., the total fare is e.g. £65.40. (2 x Super Off-Peak Single tickets, St Pancras-Ramsgate and Ramsgate-Stratford). Does TrainSplit fail to implement NRCoT correctly?

I believe it implements the Routeing Guide rules correctly, but that's not quite the same thing and I agree that the NRCoT should win in any argument. The rules as I have them (in a very interesting internal document about which RDG says "This file describes the rules that are utilised in the National Routeing Guide. This will be distributed as a Word file (RJRGRules-0005.doc). This can be obtained from RDG.") say that if there is no change of train then the journey is on a through train and is permitted, "and no further checks are required" (but they probably intend circuitous route easements to be checked?). For me, this is how the long journey is allowed. Any change of train would mean that it is a mapped journey, on maps HS or LI. The journey would pass through a station twice, not in a way that is allowed, and would not be permitted.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Perhaps of note: I have booked an itinerary which some may consider a "loophole", including travel on some of the lines under discussion on this thread. I will report back how it goes (don't hold your breath, it'll be nearly two months until then, that's the earliest date I could make it!).

 

[silverfoxcc]

Read this with interest I inserted St Pancras-Stratford via Ramsgate and whilst Trainline happily gives the fare as 6.40 the South Eastern site doesnt.
Would there be a note on the ticket specifying the route, so a 'discussion' with the TI and exchanging of details can be avoided, by pointing out where it actually specifies with no ambiguity that 6.40 is a genuine fare.
TRainline says it is 'direct' does this mean it is a round trip from St Pancras rather like the Kingston loop?

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Read this with interest I inserted St Pancras-Stratford via Ramsgate and whilst Trainline happily gives the fare as 6.40 the South Eastern site doesnt.
Would there be a note on the ticket specifying the route, so a 'discussion' with the TI and exchanging of details can be avoided, by pointing out where it actually specifies with no ambiguity that 6.40 is a genuine fare.
TRainline says it is 'direct' does this mean it is a round trip from St Pancras rather like the Kingston loop?

The route would be 'Plus High Speed' or for some other journeys the usual Any Permitted - and yes, they are direct trains, round Kent and back to St Pancras.

 

[_toommm_]

Just a question: What is the validity of an itinerary if you put a 'via' point into journey planners e.g. if I put in a journey planner A to B, it's normally only valid direct, but if I put in 'via C' it comes up with an itinerary for the same fare?

A to B direct is 27miles and change
A to B via C is 77 miles and change

I know one would not normally go A to B via C as it's a massively circuitous route involving a 3x longer commute - I'm merely talking about using A to B via C for starting and finishing short.

 

[krus_aragon]

Just a question: What is the validity of an itinerary if you put a 'via' point into journey planners e.g. if I put in a journey planner A to B, it's normally only valid direct, but if I put in 'via C' it comes up with an itinerary for the same fare?

A to B direct is 27miles and change
A to B via C is 77 miles and change

I know one would not normally go A to B via C as it's a massively circuitous route involving a 3x longer commute - I'm merely talking about using A to B via C for starting and finishing short.

Most journey planners will return the quickest journeys possible, so will skip many longer (but equally valid) ones. Generally, if a journey planner gives you an itinerary (and on a single ticket) then the route is fine.

(If I were considering breaking my journey en-route, I'd want to check if travel via C is permitted by the routeing guide: it might only be permitted because it's a through train, in which case not "travelling through" makes things more murky and debatable.)

 

[_toommm_]

Most journey planners will return the quickest journeys possible, so will skip many longer (but equally valid) ones. Generally, if a journey planner gives you an itinerary (and on a single ticket) then the route is fine.

(If I were considering breaking my journey en-route, I'd want to check if travel via C is permitted by the routeing guide: it might only be permitted because it's a through train, in which case not "travelling through" makes things more murky and debatable.)

A to B is a direct, but A to B via C is three trains. I don't think it is in the routeing guide but it is accepted at the barriers at 'C'

 

[sheff1]

If you have an itinerary for an 'exotic' route which was issued in conjunction with one ticket to make the journey, the safest option is to follow the itinerary exactly as you will then undoubtedly be valid.

Depending on circumstances, the ticket may also be valid using other trains taking the same route and/or to start/finish short, but it is impossible to say without knowing where A, B & C are.

 

[_toommm_]

If you have an itinerary for an 'exotic' route which was issued in conjunction with one ticket to make the journey, the safest option is to follow the itinerary exactly as you will then undoubtedly be valid.

Depending on circumstances the ticket my also be valid using other trains taking the same route and/or to start/finish short, but it is impossible to say without knowing where A, B & C are.

I could PM you if you're not in a position to report it? The locations will be well known to you if you reside in Sheffield...