Expired railcard

[sri1234]

Mid April I travelled from Stratford upon Avon to Leamington Spa.
My railcard app had uninstalled and I redownloaded it before travel. I opened it quickly and it had an orange railcard and the valid ones looks orange (and invalid ones look grey with red writing over them).

Therefore I assumed it was valid and got my ticket with a railcard on it.
I’ve checked through my tickets since the railcard expired and I haven’t bought any with a railcard incorrectly.
I know this isn’t a defence but it’s just genuinely what happened.

In the train the conductor noticed my railcard was invalid and he read me some laws and treated me very roughly actually and I tried telling him it was an honest mistake and that I’d buy another railcard today and he wasn’t have it.

Anyway, he fills in whatever forms and reads me the law, makes me find a photo of ID on my camera roll. Then I bought a railcard that day anyway as I thought that might help the situation.

Now two months on I’ve got a letter of intended prosecution and I’m really really worried. I work in the medical field and it’s so unfair that an honest mistake might mean I end up with a criminal record which would affect any future jobs. I don’t know how to proceed with this.

Do I get a solicitor? I’ve contacted some already and their fees are very high. But if means I’m less like to get a criminal record then I’m happy to find a way to pay the fees.

Also how far back do I need to check my own tickets? Would it just be till my railcard expired or do I check all previous railcard over the last couple years?

What’s the likely settling of cases like this? I’m really worried!

Thank you, any advice or signposting would be amazing.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@sri1234 1234. Welcome to the forum. Presume you're dealing with Chiltern Railways, or their agents. If so, could you upload a copy of the correspondence you've received. Please be sure to obscure or otherwise cover up your name and address and case reference number.

Reckon that there's a fairly decent chance of you being able to negotiate a so-called "out of court settlement" if you engage positively with the train company when you reply to them presently (need to see that letter though!)

Reckon on you having to pay them the undiscounted Anytime Day Single fare of £9.30 plus maybe a three figure sum on top towards their administration and investigation costs. The added complication will be if you have previously purchased/used railcard discounted tickets if you didn't also have a valid, in date, railcard, at the time. You'll need to double-check this.

Good luck! You shouldn't need a solicitor at this stage.

 

[Haywain]

Reckon that there's a fairly decent chance of you being able to negotiate a so-called "out of court settlement"

It's called an out of court settlement because that's exactly what it is!

 

[sri1234]

@sri1234 1234. Welcome to the forum. Presume you're dealing with Chiltern Railways, or their agents. If so, could you upload a copy of the correspondence you've received. Please be sure to obscure or otherwise cover up your name and address and case reference number.

Reckon that there's a fairly decent chance of you being able to negotiate a so-called "out of court settlement" if you engage positively with the train company when you reply to them presently (need to see that letter though!)

Reckon on you having to pay them the undiscounted Anytime Day Single fare of £9.30 plus maybe a three figure sum on top towards their administration and investigation costs. The added complication will be if you have previously purchased/used railcard discounted tickets if you didn't also have a valid, in date, railcard, at the time. You'll need to double-check this.

Good luck! You shouldn't need a solicitor at this stage.

Thank you so much! So this is the letter I got.

When you say previously- how far back do you think I need to check this? I have used railcards for the past 3-4 years and am just worried if in the period between one expiring and buying the next one whether I’ve done the same thing. Should I check all this?

If I draft something would you be able to check it? Thank you again!

 

[notmyrealname]

I know they check previous ticket purchases and people here will know how far back it's likely to be with Chiltern.

If you post your draft reply, we can proofread it for you. It's recommended not to use AI because it doesn't sound authentic.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@sri1234. When exactly did your previous railcard expire? Would have thought that any discounted tickets that you purchased/used in the 12 months previous to the expiry date *should* all be o.k. (unless, of course, you weren't claiming the correct railcard discount)!

 

[John R]

It’s highly unlikely to go to a prosecution, as an out of date railcard by a short time period is one of the most plausible genuine mistakes, rather than a deliberate attempt to defraud the railway. And we see many cases which are clearly deliberate being settled out of court, so why would yours be treated more harshly (assuming there isn’t something else we don’t know about).

So as long as you engage with the railway now, I’d be very surprised if you don’t get offered a settlement.

 

[sri1234]

@sri1234. When exactly did your previous railcard expire? Would have thought that any discounted tickets that you purchased/used in the 12 months previous to the expiry date *should* all be o.k. (unless, of course, you weren't claiming the correct railcard discount)!

As far as I’m aware I’ve always claimed the right railcard discount which is the 16-25 railcard.

My most recent railcard expired on the 18th of December 2023.

Prior to that I had a railcard from October 2022-October 2023.

Since then, the only journey I’ve made claiming I have a railcard incorrectly (and accidentally) was from Stratford to Leamington which is what I’ve been picked up on. Journey made on 17th April 2024.

I did make a journey in January 2024- but I did not use a railcard for that.

Since it had been so long getting a train I had forgotten my railcard expired around the April time.

There was some text in the letter that I’m concerned also about:
‘Following you being spoken to; the economic Crime and Fraud Unit submitted a data access request… which had revealed that you may have avoided the correct rail fare on other ocassions’

I’ve had a look as far back as my app history goes (to around August 2022) and in my emails. I’ve always correctly used a railcard to my understanding. So I’m worried as to what fare I’ve avoided in the past. I’ve also read they can go back as far as 6 years.

I’ve seen in the forum that Chiltern is a pretty harsh railway for these things. I’m more than happy to rectify my mistakes by paying whatever fare I’m just very worried about getting a criminal allegation- especially for something I definitely did not mean to.

So I think my questions are:

What kind of evidence should I be attaching to this letter I send to Chiltern?

Should I include the screenshot of my two previous in app railcards showing that I got easily confused as the expired railcard still looked orange even though usually the expired railcards look greyed out and have red writing on them?

Should I be worried about historical train tickets and railcard fares from years and years ago?

Should I add in that I got a railcard in April as soon as the train ticket inspector pointed out my railcard was invalid?

Should I include a statement along the lines of: ‘Sorry for any previous incorrect fares I’ve gotten as to my knowledge I do not recall this’ or is this asking for trouble?

And I will not be using AI thank you!

 

[Titfield]

Can you use your bank statement to find proof of having purchased railcards in the past?

You need to be careful how you phrase a response. You could say something like "To the best of my knowledge, prior to the occurrence on the 17th April 2024, I have always held a valid railcard for railcard discounted tickets purchased".

Yes you should state that you purchased a new railcard.

Train Operating Companies can go back to old purchases but for them to act on them is very unlikely. The fact that you have held at least one railcard in the past demonstrates that for that period of time the ticket purchases were valid.

 

[sri1234]

Can you use your bank statement to find proof of having purchased railcards in the past?

You need to be careful how you phrase a response. You could say something like "To the best of my knowledge, prior to the occurrence on the 17th April 2024, I have always held a valid railcard for railcard discounted tickets purchased".

Yes you should state that you purchased a new railcard.

Train Operating Companies can go back to old purchases but for them to act on them is very unlikely. The fact that you have held at least one railcard in the past demonstrates that for that period of time the ticket purchases were valid.

Okay yeah, I’ll phrase them similar to what you’ve written thank you.

And I’m also guessing they legally can’t act on incorrect fares from years ago? I read somewhere else in the forum that they have 6 months to act on these ticket issues. Is that right?

 

[WesternLancer]

Okay yeah, I’ll phrase them similar to what you’ve written thank you.

And I’m also guessing they legally can’t act on incorrect fares from years ago? I read somewhere else in the forum that they have 6 months to act on these ticket issues. Is that right?

Hi - you would be well advised to ask people to check the wording of exactly what you draft to reply to them before you send it so that you can avoid 'saying he wrong thing' that might be misconstrued.

And I’m also guessing they legally can’t act on incorrect fares from years ago? I read somewhere else in the forum that they have 6 months to act on these ticket issues. Is that right?

Well it would be difficult for them to do this BUT - the point is you don't want them to be legally acting / prosecuting you at all - not even for the one occasion where you were pulled up - what's more of a risk is them getting to the point of agreeing to an out of court settlement (which is what you want) but accusing you of having no valid railcard in the past (even if you did) and then asking for all sorts of previous fares to be part of the cost of the settlement you are offered which would then inflate the money they want off you and you are not in a strong position to negotiate.

So to avoid that I would advise gathering any evidence you can lay your hands on that shows you didn't make the mistake before, in case you need to show it to them

for example
- find any evidence / bank statements / expired Railcards etc showing dates of previous railcards held going back over last 2 or 3 years if you can (like you have stated above ref the Railcard that expired in Oct 2023 for example)
- if you buy tickets on line from on line retailers see if you can check any records from that (or from banks statements) of tickets that were bought during the period when you might have had a gap between one railcard ending and another railcard commencing to see if there are periods when you might have mistakenly bought a ticket with a railcard discount to which you would not have been entitled

Don't share that info - either here or with the railway company unless they ask - just compile the info for your own records in case you need it as things progress over coming weeks.

 

[Haywain]

So I think my questions are:

What kind of evidence should I be attaching to this letter I send to Chiltern?

Should I include the screenshot of my two previous in app railcards showing that I got easily confused as the expired railcard still looked orange even though usually the expired railcards look greyed out and have red writing on them?

Should I be worried about historical train tickets and railcard fares from years and years ago?

Should I add in that I got a railcard in April as soon as the train ticket inspector pointed out my railcard was invalid?

Should I include a statement along the lines of: ‘Sorry for any previous incorrect fares I’ve gotten as to my knowledge I do not recall this’ or is this asking for trouble?

At this stage your letter needs to address the matter they their letter refers to. You do not need to provide comments, explanations or evidence of anything else unless you are asked about that. However, whilst not admitting anything you haven't been asked about you should also take care not to use wording which might be read as denying anything else (comments like "this was a one off" would have that effect).

 

[John R]

Some of your wording confuses me a bit:-

My most recent railcard expired on the 18th of December 2023.

Prior to that I had a railcard from October 2022-October 2023.

Were these different railcards, as it would be unusual to have the same type of railcard expire just two months after the previous one.

Since it had been so long getting a train I had forgotten my railcard expired around the April time.

So is this a third railcard, or what?

If the wording is confusing me then there's a possibility that anyone looking into your case might be equally confused if this is repeated in any correspondence with them, which won't help your case.

 

[30907]

There was some text in the letter that I’m concerned also about:
‘Following you being spoken to; the economic Crime and Fraud Unit submitted a data access request… which had revealed that you may have avoided the correct rail fare on other ocassions’

It's a standard letter - interpret this a bit:

You were reported, rather than let off, because railcard misuse is a major problem.

They have now investigated, and know you have claimed discount over a longer period, so they want you to provide evidence that you actually had a railcard when you were claiming.

 

[Hadders]

Although Chiltern are one of the more 'robust' train companies to deal with they do seem to be more reasonable to deal with recently.

How things tend to work regarding out of court settlements is if you co-operate with them they will offer an out of court settlement if you reimburse them for all of the occasions where you have travelled with invalid tickets over the last few years. Given that they will research your online ticket purchasing history it's probably helpful if you set out clearly in your reply the dates when you held railcards (and show evidence of them) as it will assist in calculating the settlement figure.

Alternatively, if Chiltern were they to prosecute you realistically they could only do so for the single offence on the day you were caught. The important principle here is that purchasing invalid tickets isn't illegal, but using them is. It's unlikely that Chiltern could prove to a court beyond all reasonable doubt that you used them.

Bottom line is, most people who are caught prefer to keep things out of court. If Chiltern settle they get more money than letting the case go to court. This is because although a court would impose a fine as a punishment this goes to the Government. All Chiltern would get would be compensation for the fare avoided on the day you were caught plus a contribution towards their court costs.

 

[sri1234]

Thank you all so much for your replies and help. I have taken all of this on board and formulated the following reply:

Dear Mr X,

Thank you for the opportunity to reply to your letter of ‘Notice of Intended Prosecution’.

On the 18th of April I made a journey from Stratford-Upon-Avon to Leamington Spa. On the train, the inspector checked my ticket and asked me to present my railcard. I presented my railcard, and they pointed out that it was expired. I apologised sincerely to the inspector for my mistake and I bought another railcard the same day to try and rectify this error.

I sincerely apologise for this careless error of not checking my railcard- it was a genuine oversight. I frequently use railcards and had assumed I had a valid one. I have learnt from this to now double check my tickets prior to purchasing. To ensure this won’t happen again, I have and will actively set reminders on their expiry date in my calendar.

I do realise how much money these incidents cost Chiltern. Therefore, I kindly ask for your sympathy and recognition of my intention to never let this happen again, through my actions outlined above.

I am hopeful that this can be settled out of court as I understand how serious this is and the impact this can have on my life and career. I am prepared to pay for my fare of the journey and whatever further costs Chiltern decides is reasonable in this case.

Please also find attached my railcard’s- including the expired railcard and the current one. These are the dates of their validity:

Expired Railcard: XX December 2022 to XX December 2023

Current Railcard: 18 April 2024 – 18 April 2025

I am wiling to give you my full cooperation in this matter and I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours Sincerely,


Should I go back and include ALL my previous railcards? or are those two enough. Thank you again, I can't being to say how much this forum has helped me.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you all so much for your replies and help. I have taken all of this on board and formulated the following reply:

Dear Mr X,

Thank you for the opportunity to reply to your letter of ‘Notice of Intended Prosecution’.

On the 18th of April I made a journey from Stratford-Upon-Avon to Leamington Spa. On the train, the inspector checked my ticket and asked me to present my railcard. I presented my railcard, and they pointed out that it was expired. I apologised sincerely to the inspector for my mistake and I bought another railcard the same day to try and rectify this error.

I sincerely apologise for this careless error of not checking my railcard- it was a genuine oversight. I frequently use railcards and had assumed I had a valid one. I have learnt from this to now double check my tickets prior to purchasing. To ensure this won’t happen again, I have and will actively set reminders on their expiry date in my calendar.

I do realise how much money these incidents cost Chiltern. Therefore, I kindly ask for your sympathy and recognition of my intention to never let this happen again, through my actions outlined above.

I am hopeful that this can be settled out of court as I understand how serious this is and the impact this can have on my life and career. I am prepared to pay for my fare of the journey and whatever further costs Chiltern decides is reasonable in this case.

Please also find attached my railcard’s- including the expired railcard and the current one. These are the dates of their validity:

Expired Railcard: XX December 2022 to XX December 2023

Current Railcard: 18 April 2024 – 18 April 2025

I am wiling to give you my full cooperation in this matter and I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours Sincerely,


Should I go back and include ALL my previous railcards? or are those two enough. Thank you again, I can't being to say how much this forum has helped me.

See what others think to your draft but on your question about past railcards I’d just detail the 2 you have listed for now. They can always ask you about older railcards if they want to.

Have you checked if you bought any discounted tickets between the expiry of the railcard in December and the start of the new one in April?

 

[Haywain]

I am hopeful that this can be settled out of court as I understand how serious this is and the impact this can have on my life and career. I am prepared to pay for my fare of the journey and whatever further costs Chiltern decides is reasonable in this case.

Make this paragraph a request, not a vague hope. Along the lines of "I will be very grateful if this could be resolved out of court by payment..."

 

[30907]

Should I go back and include ALL my previous railcards? or are those two enough.

if you have had one before Dec 22, then tell them.