expired railcard

[worried mum]

my daughter travelled on Saturday with an expired railcard. It was a totally genuine mistake but I'm concerned at how she was treated and where they are heading with this. She was read her rights and had to give a statement - he could see she was visibly distressed and crying and she didn't understand his line of questioning (he asked what her income as after she'd already said she was a student and drove to school so hadn't used her railcard since last November). He wouldn't let her call me, there was no signal on the platform where she was being questioned (in front of all the passengers waiting) and he wouldn't allow her upstairs. He then asked where she was going in London and said she needed to buy a single fare home but could have her invalid ticket back if she wanted to take a risk and use it on the tube! She said no thanks and that she wouldn't have used it had she known her railcard had expired in December. I usually deal with renewing them for all three of my children as they're aged between 16 and 21 but we moved house in mid November for divorce reasons and it completely slipped under my radar. When he asked if she could pay a fine she said she only had £10 cash - he'd seen in her wallet when she opened it to show him and there were debit cards there. Surely she could have used those to pay? By now she was so stressed she wanted to get away from everyone staring at her. She went up to the ticket office and bought a travelcard for the tune (£12) and single fare home (£8.90).
What are the chances they will prosecute? Is there any way we can show it truly was a genuine oversight? She has A levels coming up and suffers stress related illnesses so I'm very concerned at the effect this will have on her.

Any advice would be very appreciated.

 

[najaB]

What are the chances they will prosecute?

Any advice would be very appreciated.

There's a little more information that might help answer your questions more accurately:

• Where did she travel from and to?
• Where was she stopped - on the platform, as she attempted to leave the station?
• Does any paperwork she received say which Train Operating Company (TOC) the ticket checker represented?
• What kind of rail card was it?

 

[DaleCooper]

Does all this sound familiar?

 

[worried mum]

Thanks - am new to all this!

She was travelling from Harpenden to meet friends in Oxford street (via St Pancras) so wanted a 1 day travelcard.

She was stopped on the train (the stranger sitting next to her said that the expiry date was very faded but was told to keep out of it, it was nothing to do with him by the Inspector).

The train was whatever First Capital Connect are now called.

It was a Young Persons (16-25) railcard.

Only happened on Saturday and she wasn't given any paperwork to take away, he also took her faded railcard and her invalid ticket (after offering it back for her to use).

Many thanks

 

[worried mum]

Sorry if it's hashing over old ground, I know there are numerous threads about expired railcards it was more the way she was treated, the odd questions she was asked and whether it could have all been sorted out there and then had they said she could pay by debit card. She was in no fit state to properly respond as she was crying and shocked and I'm worried that a totally genuine mistake by a very law abiding and well behaved girl could have consequences for her future if they decide to prosecute.

 

[cjmillsnun]

A very important question. How old is she?

 

[worried mum]

She turned 18 last October so guess they would treat her as an adult and not allow her to call her mum? I think she would still have appreciated being able to make a call as she's never been in this sort of situation before and perhaps I could have helped.

 

[ian959]

Obvious question here is IF she was so distressed and crying, how sure are you that what you are being told by your daughter is an accurate recollection of what actually happened?

Will they prosecute? Possibly but an out of court settlement is most likely.

After all, 3 months is a LONG time to not realise that your railcard is expired.

 

[antharro]

Sorry if it's hashing over old ground, I know there are numerous threads about expired railcards it was more the way she was treated, the odd questions she was asked and whether it could have all been sorted out there and then had they said she could pay by debit card. She was in no fit state to properly respond as she was crying and shocked and I'm worried that a totally genuine mistake by a very law abiding and well behaved girl could have consequences for her future if they decide to prosecute.

It's not so much hashing over old ground. Please don't take it as anyone's having a go at you or your daughter here. If you take some time and read through other cases in this sub-forum, you'll see that so many of them portray the revenue protection officer (RPI) as being mean / aggressive / shouting / rude / threatening / etc. No one doubts that from time to time there will be an RPI whose behaviour is out of order, but it does seem that a lot of people on here try and claim that as an excuse as to why they should be let off or as leverage against the TOC. So other forum members who participate in this sub-forum frequently are a bit jaded against that kind of claim as it has been somewhat abused in the past. (And is almost a running in-joke here too!)

 

[bb21]

I am unable to respond in detail at the moment so I will be brief. Many points will have been covered by others. A few observations and questions:

1. Did your daughter offer to pay the Penalty Fare (I assume) by card? I am surprised that they refused to take it if a Penalty Fare were indeed offered. If when asked (depending on how the questions were worded - can your daughter remember exactly what the questions were? I suspect not since she was in sixes and sevens), your daughter claimed to have only £10 on her then my money is on no Penalty Fare being offered, as she would have not had enough money to make even the minimum payment. (She may have thought that she said she only had £10 cash. It may have come across differently to the RPI.)
2. Where was her ticket purchased? Did she buy it online, from the ticket office, or from the ticket machine?
3. At the age of 18, I think it would be hard-pushed to convince the company that your daughter took no responsibility for the renewal of her own Railcard. With it being three months out of date, it is likely to reflect badly on her as the sequence of events ticks several boxes.
4. Crying is a regular ploy by some seasoned fare-evaders. Not saying that your daughter is one, but just to make you aware that it is unlikely to gain sympathy from the RPI as they would have seen it all before.
5. There are two matters involved here, one being that your daughter appears to have committed a criminal offence (against the Railway Byelaws - others will elaborate more), the other being your complaint (on her behalf) about the manner in which she was treated. Make sure that you do not confuse these two matters as the latter does not affect the former.
6. It is not the end of the world, and the chance of ending up with a criminal record is low, if handled properly. Even if by a huge stroke of misfortune a criminal record were forthcoming, it would still not be the end of the world.

Others should be able to expand on my points if needed, so any question feel free to ask. I will expand on my points when I get some free time if no one else does before me.

 

[Antman]

my daughter travelled on Saturday with an expired railcard. It was a totally genuine mistake but I'm concerned at how she was treated and where they are heading with this. She was read her rights and had to give a statement - he could see she was visibly distressed and crying and she didn't understand his line of questioning (he asked what her income as after she'd already said she was a student and drove to school so hadn't used her railcard since last November). He wouldn't let her call me, there was no signal on the platform where she was being questioned (in front of all the passengers waiting) and he wouldn't allow her upstairs. He then asked where she was going in London and said she needed to buy a single fare home but could have her invalid ticket back if she wanted to take a risk and use it on the tube! She said no thanks and that she wouldn't have used it had she known her railcard had expired in December. I usually deal with renewing them for all three of my children as they're aged between 16 and 21 but we moved house in mid November for divorce reasons and it completely slipped under my radar. When he asked if she could pay a fine she said she only had £10 cash - he'd seen in her wallet when she opened it to show him and there were debit cards there. Surely she could have used those to pay? By now she was so stressed she wanted to get away from everyone staring at her. She went up to the ticket office and bought a travelcard for the tune (£12) and single fare home (£8.90).
What are the chances they will prosecute? Is there any way we can show it truly was a genuine oversight? She has A levels coming up and suffers stress related illnesses so I'm very concerned at the effect this will have on her.

Any advice would be very appreciated.

Without going into the rights and wrongs of what your daughter did or didn't do, perhaps you should consider making a complaint to the TOC or possibly even the BTP about the RPI's conduct?

 

[bb21]

I have removed the massive argument that has taken place.

Without going into the rights and wrongs of what your daughter did or didn't do, perhaps you should consider making a complaint to the TOC or possibly even the BTP about the RPI's conduct?

I think past experience suggests that such complaint would have no effect on the core facts of the case. Make a complaint by all means, but the fact remains that the OP's daughter appeared to have committed an offence, and that is not changed whether there is a complaint regarding the RPI's behaviour or not, and whether the RPI was nice or not.

I think that is all that needs to be said in respect of this potential complaint. It certainly is not/and should not be the most central and pressing issue as far as the OP's daughter is concerned. There is nothing to stop such a complaint being made, but that should not to be a distraction for the OP as long as the more central issue of the offence remains.

 

[Flamingo]

Without going into the rights and wrongs of what your daughter did or didn't do, perhaps you should consider making a complaint to the TOC or possibly even the BTP about the RPI's conduct?

(To replace my deleted post)

Why not complain to the ECHR as well? :roll:

OP: Ignore Antman's post. As other more sensible posters have said, this would not be a good use of your time and energy, which would be better off directed at minimising the risk of prosecution. Any complaint could be counter-productive, and result in a reluctance on the part of the prosecution department to accept any out-of-court settlement.

Without putting too fine a point on it, your daughter (who is an adult) has been caught committing a criminal offence. Any complaint against the person who caught them will be taken with a bushel of salt.

 

[6Gman]

I have removed the massive argument that has taken place.

Ah, that explains why my attempt to post went nowhere!

Deal with the case - if and when resolved then consider complaining about the RPI's behaviour.

Incidentally, an 18 year old can surely be treated as an adult and the days of special treatment of "young ladies" is a thing of the past?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I usually deal with renewing them for all three of my children as they're aged between 16 and 21 but we moved house in mid November for divorce reasons and it completely slipped under my radar.

I do not normally make postings upon this thread, but above, I have shown an extract from the OP in which the mother, not her children, renews all the railcards. Did someone on the thread ask if the girl herself had done this renewal?

 

[snail]

I do not normally make postings upon this thread, but above, I have shown an extract from the OP in which the mother, not her children, renews all the railcards.

That reminds me of my university lecturer friend who replies to emails from parents about their beloved child's studies pointing out that they are now adults and need to think - and write - for themselves.