Expired railcard Northern

[canans]

Hi,

I made an incredibly stupid mistake at the start of the month. I booked a train from Manchester airport to Manchester picadilly via train line, completely forgetting it was still set to 16-25 railcard prices as I have not used the app or a train in months due to being abroad. A ticket insepctor at Manchester picadilly then asked for my railcard and it was expired by a few months. Hadn't renewed it due to being abroad. He then took my information, which I willingly and correctly gave, and said I'll hear from northern soon.

I know this isn't an excuse but it was a genuine mistake and I am terrified this will lead to a prosecution. My main concern is that a letter never arrives for whatever reason and the 14 day reply period will pass by and I'll be summoned to court. The address is correct and post is accessible daily but I'm concerned about the letter going missing in the mail. I am prepared to pay for the correct ticket and the administration costs, and I bought a railcard immediately after the report was filed. There were no other trains I took without a valid railcard and this is my first incident.

Should I contact northern rail? Otherwise how long do these letters take?

Thank you kindly

 

[antharro]

They have up to six months to get the letter to you - that's when they run out of time to take it to court. Once you get the letter, post it here with your personal details and reference number redacted and we'll be able to advise on your best course of action.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

This sort of thing happens quite frequently. Northern will write to you in the next few weeks and say that they have received a report and are considering prosecuting you. The letter will use quite threatening language. Reply with a short, concise reply mentioning the following points and I expect then to offer you an out of court settlement, this typically costs around £150 plus the outstanding fare.

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

When it arrives, post a copy of the letter in this thread with your draft reply and we will be happy to proof read it for you. Do redact any personal details before uploading.

There is nothing to be gained by contacting Northern ahead of the letter arriving. They deal with hundreds of cases at any one time and they won't be able to match up your case without the case reference number. Also, you don't know what they are going to ask in their letter so best wait and answer the questions they ask you!

 

[jfollows]

It will also do no harm to buy a new railcard and tell Northern that you have done this; it won’t reduce the amount of money but helps to show them you mean never to repeat your error.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@canans. Welcome to the forum. Reckon that you'll be asked by Northern to pay the fare due of £6.50 (with no allowance made for anything that you'd paid already) plus a low three figure sum towards admin fees.

If a check of your ticket purchasing history shows that the occasion when you were stopped was indeed the only time you've travelled using an inappropriately discounted ticket, paying the sum calculated above, when asked to do so, should be the end of the matter.

 

[canans]

Thank you all for your advice so far. I will post the letter as soon as I get it.

It will also do no harm to buy a new railcard and tell Northern that you have done this; it won’t reduce the amount of money but helps to show them you mean never to repeat your error.

I bought one as soon as the officer had let me go from filing the report. Certainly don't want this to happen again

 

[FuzzyDuck]

Perhaps stop using Trainline in future, I always book tickets via the relevant TOc. Two advantages:

- No surcharge
- They never seem to remember railcards

 

[30907]

Perhaps stop using Trainline in future, I always book tickets via the relevant TOc. Two advantages:

- No surcharge
- They never seem to remember railcards

The Northern app does (think its basically TL) - slightly annoying when you have two of them

 

[canans]

Hi, just received the letter yesterday, which has been a relief. As far as I can tell it's a pretty standard letter from them? Planning on telling them exactly what happened, that I deeply regret what I did, that it won't happen again and that I bought a new railcard to ensure that, and finally that I am keen to settle out of court and willing to pay any costs endured by handling the case as well as the original fare. Will draft a letter soon to send off. Thanks for all your help so far

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi, just received the letter yesterday, which has been a relief. As far as I can tell it's a pretty standard letter from them? Planning on telling them exactly what happened, that I deeply regret what I did, that it won't happen again and that I bought a new railcard to ensure that, and finally that I am keen to settle out of court and willing to pay any costs endured by handling the case as well as the original fare. Will draft a letter soon to send off. Thanks for all your help so far

You might want to upload an anonymised copy for ppl to check what they have sent you. Sometimes Northern send out what they term 'Fixed Penalty Notice' letters which are different. Just worth being clear what you have received.

Or of course you could upload a copy of it along with your draft reply if easier (remove your name / address / ref numbers etc before uploading)

 

[canans]

Unfortunately seem to be having issues with uploading right now. They're asking for my version of events within 14 days before they proceed with the investigation. There is no mention of fixed penalty notice so I don't think it's that one. Will keep trying with the letter, sorry for any inconveniences

 

[WesternLancer]

Unfortunately seem to be having issues with uploading right now. They're asking for my version of events within 14 days before they proceed with the investigation. There is no mention of fixed penalty notice so I don't think it's that one. Will keep trying with the letter, sorry for any inconveniences

Thanks. That does not sound like a Fixed Penalty Notice as you say.

 

[canans]

Please let me know if any of this needs altering. Thanks very much

Dear Sir/Madam

Reference Number xxxx

I am writing to you about the circumstances of the incident on the xxxx of xxxx.

I had taken a train from Manchester airport to Manchester Picadilly, and was stopped at the exit by a revenue protections officer. When he asked for my railcard, I couldn't show him one as my railcard was not synced up to my new phone, following the previous phone's theft.

It had not been my plan to travel with a railcard ticket, as I was not sure if my railcard was valid. I had forgotten to switch trainline over to no railcard as I have been out of the country for most of the past year, which is why I hadn't checked my railcard for a long time, and had only realised the ticket was a railcard one when the inspector mentioned it.

Once the report was filed, I immediately searched for information on my old card, only to find it was out of date. I then purchased a new one at 9:57 am on xxx so that I would not be without a valid railcard for any trains I took after this one.

I sincerely apologise for this careless mistake. I should have taken better care and paid closer attention to the ticket I purchased. This is entirely my fault and is something I am going to ensure won't happen again, as I realise how much money these incidents cost train companies. I hope you can recognise my intention to not repeat this mistake through my purchase of a new railcard, and I have set its expiry date in my calendar already.

I am keen to settle this matter without the need to take this to court. I am willing to pay the fare I should have paid, as well as any administrative costs endured by Northern as a result of my case.

Please let me know if you need any further information or if I can be of any assistance in rectifying this honest mistake.

Thank you for your time, xxxxx

 

[30907]

Two thoughts:
1. I suggest rephrasing the last-but-one para to make clear that you are asking Northern to consider offering a settlement - rather than you making them an offer. It's up to them, after all.
2. I think you've rather overdone the "careless/honest mistake" aspect, but it's your call..

 

[canans]

Two thoughts:
1. I suggest rephrasing the last-but-one para to make clear that you are asking Northern to consider offering a settlement - rather than you making them an offer. It's up to them, after all.
2. I think you've rather overdone the "careless/honest mistake" aspect, but it's your call..

Made a couple alterations below. Hope this is better. Thanks for your reply

I sincerely apologise for this careless mistake. I should have taken better care and paid closer attention to the ticket I purchased. This is entirely my fault and is something I am going to ensure won't happen again, as I realise how much money these incidents cost train companies. I hope you can recognise my intention to not let this happen again, through my purchase of a new railcard, and I have set its expiry date in my calendar already.

I am keen to settle this matter without the need to take this to court. I would be incredibly grateful if you offered me an out of court settlement to resolve this issue, as I realise how serious a trial would be and the impact it would have on my life. I am willing to pay the fare I should have paid, as well as any administrative costs endured by Northern as a result of my case.

Please let me know if you need any further information or if I can be of any assistance in rectifying this incident.

 

[antharro]

You have a good start there but I feel it could use some work; too many run-on sentences and some general cleaning up. My edits are in bold and bold strikethrough, and comments in bold italics.


Dear Sir/Madam, <--- if there's a name on the letter, use it, likewise a title: "Dear Prosecutions Manager," for example.

Reference Number xxxx

I am writing to you about the circumstances of the incident on the xxxx of xxxx.

I had taken a train from Manchester a Airport to Manchester Picadilly Piccadilly, and was stopped at the exit by a revenue protections officer. When he asked for my railcard, I couldn't show him one as my railcard was not synced up to my new phone, following the previous phone's theft.

It had not been my plan to travel with a railcard ticket, as I was not sure if my railcard was valid. I had forgotten to switch t Trainline over to no railcard as I have been out of the country for most of the past year, . which is why I hadn't checked my railcard for a long time, and had only realised the ticket was a railcard one when the inspector mentioned it.

Once the report was filed, I immediately searched for information on my old card, only to find it was out of date. I then purchased a new one at 9:57 am on xxx so that I would not be without a valid railcard for any trains I took after this one.

I sincerely apologise for this careless mistake. I should have taken better care and paid closer attention to the ticket I purchased. This is entirely my fault and is something I am going to ensure won't happen again, . as I realise understand how much money these incidents cost train companies. , and I realise how serious a trial would be and the impact it would have on my life. I hope you can recognise my intention to not repeat this mistake. through my purchase of I have purchased a new railcard, number ###, and I have set its expiry date in my calendar already.

I am keen to settle this matter without the need to take this to court. I am willing to pay the fare I should have paid, as well as any administrative costs endured by Northern as a result of my case.

^^^ I have never liked "I am willing to pay xxx", mostly because your willingness is irrelevant. You'll either pay what they tell you to pay or you'll end up in court.

I am keen to settle this matter without the need for court action. I would be incredibly grateful if you could offer me an out of court settlement, and I am prepared to pay whatever Northern decides is reasonable.

Please let me know if you need any further information or if I can be of any assistance in rectifying this honest mistake.

Thank you for your time, xxxxx .

Yours sincerely / faithfully, <-- sincerely if you're writing to a specific person, faithfully otherwise


Firstname Lastname


So pulling this all together, we have:




Dear Sir/Madam,

Reference Number xxxx

I am writing to you about the circumstances of the incident on the xxxx of xxxx.

I had taken a train from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly, and was stopped at the exit by a revenue protections officer. When he asked for my railcard, I couldn't show him one as my railcard was not synced up to my new phone, following the previous phone's theft.

It had not been my plan to travel with a railcard ticket, as I was not sure if my railcard was valid. I had forgotten to switch Trainline over to no railcard as I have been out of the country for most of the past year. I hadn't checked my railcard for a long time, and had only realised the ticket was a railcard one when the inspector mentioned it.

Once the report was filed, I immediately searched for information on my old card, only to find it was out of date. I then purchased a new one at 9:57 am on xxx so that I would not be without a valid railcard for any trains I took after this one.

I sincerely apologise for this careless mistake. I should have taken better care and paid closer attention to the ticket I purchased. This is entirely my fault and is something I am going to ensure won't happen again. I understand how much money these incidents cost train companies, and I realise how serious a trial would be and the impact it would have on my life. I hope you can recognise my intention to not repeat this mistake. I have purchased a new railcard, number ###, and I have set its expiry date in my calendar.

I am keen to settle this matter without the need for court action. I would be incredibly grateful if you could offer me an out of court settlement, and I am prepared to pay whatever Northern decides is reasonable.

Please let me know if you need any further information or if I can be of any assistance in rectifying this honest mistake.

Thank you for your time.

Yours sincerely / faithfully,


Firstname Lastname

 

[Haywain]

I would suggest cutting the second, third and fourth paragraphs down to a couple of lines. It needs no more than an apology for the oversight, not a detailed excuse.

 

[canans]

Thank you all for your guidance. It's been very much appreciated. I have edited my letter to reflect what you've all said and I will email it to Northern today. Will update this when I get a response, hopefully an out of court settlement.

 

[canans]

Small update: got a response telling me to expect a letter in the post at some point. Is this likely to be a fixed penalty notice? I know northern say in their terms that court proceedings are a "last option" but still a bit concerned about a summons. Thanks

 

[Haywain]

Is this likely to be a fixed penalty notice?

Maybe, maybe not, but it's likely to be offering you a settlement rather than a summons.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is this likely to be a fixed penalty notice?

Could be. For your info, we've had another poster on the 'Disputes & Prosecutions' sub-forum recently who had been stopped when travelling from Manchester Airport to Manchester using a discounted ticket but with an expired railcard, and they've been asked to stump up a total of £106.50. Reckon you'll have the opportunity to settle, and quite possibly for a ballpark similar amount. A tad expensive, but that should then be the end of the matter.

 

[canans]

Hi, just to update you all, I was requested to pay £106.50, which I've now paid. Been a massive relief to put this behind me now. Thank you all so much for your help and reassurance!

 

[notmyrealname]

That's good news, thank you for letting us know.