Expired Rail Card GTR

[BinnyMan]

Hello all,


I was wondering if anyone on here could provide me with some valuable advice about how best to respond to a notice of intention to prosecute I have received.

The story is that I had a 16-25 railcard that was purchased on the train line and did not know it was expired until it was checked on my morning commute by a ticket inspector at Farringdon station.

He/She asked to see my rail card on the app, and we both discovered it was out of date. I immediately bought a new one while directly speaking with him/her.

I was travelling with a paper ticket I bought from zone 6 station to zone 1 (with a return journey) via the Thameslink.

I work around London and often normally use Contactless as it's just easier, but this day I bought a ticket as I do from time to time.

My railcard was out of date by 3 months, and, to be honest, I had totally forgotten about it and had no reminders until I was caught. There are a number of journeys on a train line that, where it is to be tracked, will show instances where I had been travelling with a valid railcard. Although equally, there are plenty where I pay full price with one!

This is the first time I have ever been caught for an offence like this, and I'd very much like to pay a fine and for it to go away.

As shown in the letter, it states that on the date, I did not have a valid ticket entitling travel, so, for now, it seems to be the one case I will need to address in my reply, and I am mindful of that in any response that may be given. Also, I note that it does not mention the rail card, only a invalid ticket; therefore, I have not described the reason for my invalid ticket in my response to prevent them from looking into my records any further; possibly, the officer only reported a invalid ticket. Nonetheless the fact is, it was invalid.

It's possibly worth noting that the discount I received using my out-of-date rail card was only £1.90 due to the £12 minimum charge.

Please review my response below and the attached letter and let me know your thoughts.

"Thank you for your letter and for affording me the opportunity to address the matter at hand.
I would like to apologise for travelling without a valid ticket on XXXX. The ticket inspector brought this to my attention during my journey into London, and I take full responsibility for my oversight.
I fully understand that, as a passenger, it is my responsibility to ensure the validity of my ticket before boarding the train, a duty I regrettably failed to fulfil. I unequivocally recognise the breach of rules in purchasing the incorrect ticket and violating my right to fair passage.
This experience has underscored the crucial role of Revenue Protection staff in upholding travel regulations across all British Rail Services. I sincerely regret my irresponsible actions, and I accept complete responsibility for my lapse in judgment.
I appreciate the importance of maintaining the integrity of the railway system, and I understand your commitment to holding those who evade fares accountable. Despite this, I kindly request your consideration in making an exception in my case. I deeply regret my foolish actions, and I am willing to cover the cost of travel, subsequent penalties, and administrative fees to settle this matter promptly.
I want to assure you that I have learned from this experience, and I am committed to taking proactive measures to ensure such an oversight never occurs again. I am sincerely sorry for any inconvenience I may have caused and hope for your understanding and leniency in resolving this matter without legal proceedings.
Thank you for your time and consideration. I am eager to rectify this situation and continue as a responsible and legitimate customer for many years to come."

 

[furlong]

What precisely do you mean when you write "violating my right to fair passage"? What is fair passage? Where is this right of yours to it derived from? What violated it?

 

[John R]

The whole letter feels somewhat over the top to me. There are much simpler ways of expressing regret and asking for an out of court settlement.

Reading it I almost lost the will to live before getting to the bottom of it, and I don’t think the complexity and length increases the degree of sincerity which you are trying to get across.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

As shown in the letter, it states that on the date, I did not have a valid ticket entitling travel, so, for now, it seems to be the one case I will need to address in my reply, and I am mindful of that in any response that may be given. Also, I note that it does not mention the rail card, only a invalid ticket; therefore, I have not described the reason for my invalid ticket in my response to prevent them from looking into my records any further; possibly, the officer only reported a invalid ticket. Nonetheless the fact is, it was invalid.

I don’t think that your logic is necessarily sound here. I agree that the letter from GTR doesn’t mention the railcard point, but to me it reads like a general purpose letter that could be used for many irregularities. So you can’t conclude that the expired railcard wasn’t recorded from the fact that it isn’t mentioned here. If I am right on this, the railway will wonder why you didn’t mention the railcard and could conclude that your response isn’t fully sincere — that you are trying to say what you think they want to hear rather than what you actually believe.

As well as this, my view is that what GTR want to get out of this is revenue protection - not just getting the fare and costs back for this and maybe previous occasions, but reassurance that you will pay the right fare in future. An easy way to help give that reassurance is showing what steps you have taken to avoid future problems, and buying a new railcard is one such step. But to mention your new railcard you need to explain you needed it- which means mentioning the old expired card!

 

[AlterEgo]

AI isn't very good at writing letters that sound like they've come from a human.

Use the structure, but rip out all the preposterous language and put it in plain English. There's also no such thing as "British Rail Services" which has been rendered as a proper noun.

 

[BinnyMan]

Thanks for all your comments.

I have amended the reply to the following.

"Thank you for your letter and for affording me the opportunity to respond.

I would like to apologise for travelling without a valid ticket on XXXX as I was unknowingly in possession of an out-of-date rail card. The ticket inspector brought this to my attention during my journey into London, and I take full responsibility for my oversight.

I fully understand that, as a passenger, it is my responsibility to ensure the validity of my ticket before boarding the train, a duty I regrettably failed to fulfil. I unequivocally recognise the breach of rules in purchasing the incorrect ticket. I sincerely regret my irresponsible actions, and I accept complete responsibility for my lapse in judgment.

I appreciate the importance of maintaining the integrity of the railway system, and I understand your commitment to holding those who evade fares accountable. Despite this, I kindly request your consideration in making an exception in my case. I deeply regret my mistake, and I am willing to cover the cost of travel, subsequent penalties, and administrative fees to settle this matter promptly.

I want to assure you that I have learned from this experience, and I am committed to taking proactive measures to ensure such an oversight never occurs again. I am sincerely sorry for any inconvenience I may have caused and hope for your understanding and leniency in resolving this matter without legal proceedings.
Thank you for your time and consideration. I am eager to rectify this situation and continue as a responsible and legitimate customer for many years to come."

 

[AndroidBango]

Thanks for all your comments.

I have amended the reply to the following.

Thank you for your letter and for affording me the opportunity to respond.

I would like to apologise for travelling without a valid ticket on XXXX as I was unknowingly in possession of an out-of-date rail card. The ticket inspector brought this to my attention during my journey into London, and I take full responsibility for my oversight.

I fully understand that, as a passenger, it is my responsibility to ensure the validity of my ticket before boarding the train. , a duty I regrettably failed to fulfil. I unequivocally recognise the breach of rules in purchasing the incorrect ticket and violating my right to fair passage. I sincerely regret my irresponsible actions, and I accept complete responsibility for my lapse in judgment.

I appreciate the importance of maintaining the integrity of the railway system, and I understand your commitment to holding those who evade fares accountable. Despite this, I kindly request your consideration in making an exception in my case. I deeply regret my mistake, and I am willing to cover the cost of travel, subsequent penalties, and administrative fees to settle this matter promptly.

I want to assure you that I have learned from this experience, and will ensure that it never happens again. and I am committed to taking proactive measures to ensure such an oversight never occurs again. I am sincerely sorry for any inconvenience I may have caused and hope for your understanding and leniency in resolving this matter without legal proceedings.
Thank you for your time and consideration. I am eager to rectify this situation and continue as a responsible and legitimate customer for many years to come Yours sincerely

I think you could probably lose the deleted text above, it's still rather overdone. And though you might be 'willing' to pay for your mistake, you need to ask them.

 

[Titfield]

With all due respect I think it is still a bit repetitive and "flowery".

For example you say "I sincerely regret my irresponsible actions" and "I deeply regret my foolish actions". (repetitive)

You also say "continue as a responsible and legitimate customer for many years to come". (flowery and uneccessary).

You should offer to pay the fare avoided and the administrative costs. No penalty would be applied by the TOC.

Just remember the person reading this and making a decision is basing their decision on 1) getting the monies owed for the unpaid fare / under fare 2) some reassurance that the person wont make the same mistake / try to avoid the fare in the future.

 

[BinnyMan]

Thanks for all your comments.

How is this;

"Thank you for your letter and for affording me the opportunity to respond.

I would like to apologise for travelling without a valid ticket on XXXX as I was unknowingly in possession of an out-of-date rail card. The ticket inspector brought this to my attention during my journey into London, and I take full responsibility for my oversight.

I fully understand that, as a passenger, it is my responsibility to ensure the validity of my ticket before boarding the train, and I accept complete responsibility for my lapse in judgment.

I appreciate the importance of maintaining the integrity of the railway system, and I understand your commitment to holding those who evade fares accountable. Despite this, I kindly request your consideration in making an exception in my case. I deeply regret my mistake and would ask for the opportunity to cover the cost of travel and administrative fees to settle this matter outside of court promptly.

I want to assure you that I have learned from this experience and will ensure that it never happens again.

Your sincerely"

 

[bikesntrains77]

Maybe cover the action you've already taken by saying ... "The ticket inspector brought this to my attention during my journey into London, I take full responsibility for my oversight and immediately bought a new railcard in-front of the inspector".

Personally I think this whole matter is completely out of proportion. Surely this kind of oversight should have been dealt with via a penalty fare, rather than going straight down the prosecution / out of court settlement route. Maybe GTR revenue protection officers are given bonuses based on the number of prosecutions they write up.

 

[BinnyMan]

Cheers

Totally agree; I am actually quite pissed off that it's going down this road for an honest mistake where a fine would have been just. Especially when you see the number of people jumping barriers regularly. Oh well, that's this country, I guess.

How is this;

"Thank you for your letter and for affording me the opportunity to respond.

I would like to apologise for travelling without a valid ticket on XXXX as I was unknowingly in possession of an out-of-date rail card. The ticket inspector brought this to my attention during my journey into London, and I took full responsibility for my oversight and immediately bought a new railcard to finish my journey on the same day.

I fully understand that, as a passenger, it is my responsibility to ensure the validity of my ticket before boarding the train, and I accept complete responsibility for my lapse in judgment.

I appreciate the importance of maintaining the integrity of the railway system, and I understand your commitment to holding those who evade fares accountable. Despite this, I kindly request your consideration in making an exception in my case. I deeply regret my mistake and would ask for the opportunity to cover the cost of travel and administrative fees to settle this matter outside of court promptly.

I want to assure you that I have learned from this experience and will ensure that it never happens again.

Your sincerely"

 

[MotCO]

It's good that you have bought a new rail card. May I suggest that you set a diary reminder on your phone to renew in a year's time before it runs out? We don't want to see you back on this forum in a year's time!

 

[BinnyMan]

It's good that you have bought a new rail card. May I suggest that you set a diary reminder on your phone to renew in a year's time before it runs out? We don't want to see you back on this forum in a year's time!

lol, don't worry. I did that as soon as I bought it.

After this one runs out, I don't think I'll be renewing. I found using Trainline a nuisance even before this, and now I'd like to avoid the risk altogether and just use Contactless; after all, it's only a small saving.

 

[tony6499]

Maybe cover the action you've already taken by saying ... "The ticket inspector brought this to my attention during my journey into London, I take full responsibility for my oversight and immediately bought a new railcard in-front of the inspector".

Personally I think this whole matter is completely out of proportion. Surely this kind of oversight should have been dealt with via a penalty fare, rather than going straight down the prosecution / out of court settlement route. Maybe GTR revenue protection officers are given bonuses based on the number of prosecutions they write up.

Not when it's 3 months out of date

 

[Hadders]

Personally I think this whole matter is completely out of proportion. Surely this kind of oversight should have been dealt with via a penalty fare, rather than going straight down the prosecution / out of court settlement route. Maybe GTR revenue protection officers are given bonuses based on the number of prosecutions they write up.

Totally agree; I am actually [redacted] that it's going down this road for an honest mistake where a fine would have been just. Especially when you see the number of people jumping barriers regularly. Oh well, that's this country, I guess.

GTR are one of the most pragmatic train companies when it comes to dealing with this sort of thing, and if you co-operate with them it's unlikely that they will prosecute.

Just to be clear you don't actually want to pay a fine here. Only a court can impose a fine as a punishment following a conviction. WHat you actually want to pay is an out of court settlement which in effect means you pay a sum of money to GTR and in return they won't prosecute you. Paying an out of court settlement might appear and feel like a fine but it isn't a fine and you won't have a crininal record as a result of paying one.

Generally, I do think there is a case for more Penalty Fares to be issued rather than details being taken for follow-up but there are a couple of points to consider:

1. Not all staff are authorised to issue Penalty Fares. So if a member of staff isn't authorised all they can do is take details for follow-up
2. In this case the railcard was three months out of date. That is quite a long period of time and in my view that is worthy of following up and checking to see if other journeys have been made with railcard discounted tickets during that period. While it's unfortunate, practically everyone I've ever given advice to on this forum says their case was a 'genuine error'. Where exactly do you draw the line?

 

[BinnyMan]

GTR are one of the most pragmatic train companies when it comes to dealing with this sort of thing, and if you co-operate with them it's unlikely that they will prosecute.

Just to be clear you don't actually want to pay a fine here. Only a court can impose a fine as a punishment following a conviction. WHat you actually want to pay is an out of court settlement which in effect means you pay a sum of money to GTR and in return they won't prosecute you. Paying an out of court settlement might appear and feel like a fine but it isn't a fine and you won't have a crininal record as a result of paying one.

Generally, I do think there is a case for more Penalty Fares to be issued rather than details being taken for follow-up but there are a couple of points to consider:

1. Not all staff are authorised to issue Penalty Fares. So if a member of staff isn't authorised all they can do is take details for follow-up
2. In this case the railcard was three months out of date. That is quite a long period of time and in my view that is worthy of following up and checking to see if other journeys have been made with railcard discounted tickets during that period. While it's unfortunate, practically everyone I've ever given advice to on this forum says their case was a 'genuine error'. Where exactly do you draw the line?

Thank you for your reply, Hadders; I will be sure to mention that I would like the opportunity to pay an out-of-court settlement.

I feel like I know why it wasn't a fine, as I was given an interview under caution by an inspector who was within a larger group that was inspecting all passengers travelling through the station. None of the inspectors looked like they were doing fines, only reporting people they had picked up on their devices. The inspector even seemed to be slightly regretful that they were having to report me. Given this, I don't blame anyone for having to pay for my mistake. It was just their job, and if I needed to pay a fine, so be it (although I do wish that I never bought a bloody rail card as the savings are minimal).

As you mentioned, there are plenty of people similar to my situation. Do you know what their outcomes are? if they look deeply into mine, they'll be bound to find a number of journeys that I pay for without a valid rail card, but I do most of my journeys on contactless even now with my new railcard. Nothing has been mentioned in the letter regarding other incidents so far.

Cheers